Languages
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@baa81c2ca7=Fraoch:
@baa81c2ca7=cardamon:
I just can't help feeling that this sort of thing locks us, as players, not characters (they're already locked out) out of part of the narrative simply for playing relatively low INT or low skill point characters who'd rather sink it into things like Discipline and Heal.
Instead of leaving it up to a script to manage, what about a middle path? A token with reference tags on various aspects about a character, including spoken language. New languages could be added by DM, but no scripting backend to hide the unknown languages. Same direction you're going, with most of the benefits and very little grief for people who share my view point.
A low int/skill point character gets the benefits of that in high stats/other things. You'd also be hosing over one of the bard's class features.
You missed my point. It's not about the PC's ability. The PC with low int and skill points SHOULDN'T understand all those languages. I'm talking about the differentiation between PC and Player. As the widget's been discussed, it locks most players out of conversations their PC was already conceptually and skill pointedly locked out of. Which you all know. That's what you're talking about. That's what you've proposed.
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@0bd9ea179a=cardamon:
I just can't help feeling that this sort of thing locks us, as players, not characters (they're already locked out) out of part of the narrative simply for playing relatively low INT or low skill point characters who'd rather sink it into things like Discipline and Heal.
Instead of leaving it up to a script to manage, what about a middle path? A token with reference tags on various aspects about a character, including spoken language. New languages could be added by DM, but no scripting backend to hide the unknown languages. Same direction you're going, with most of the benefits and very little grief for people who share my view point.
A low int/skill point character gets the benefits of that in other stats/abilities.
You'd also be hosing one of the bard's class feature.
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@eb52167c4a=Zyphlin:
If you're human warrior is int 8 and spends all his skill points on class skills, he doesn't get to have any language other than common.
You always get your regional (local) language eg chondothan for the heartlands, damaran for Narfell.
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The teaching thing sounds really neat, as does the "levels" as long as its not extremely difficult to advance those levels since you're spending skill points in it to get.
I don't think things like infernal/ingan/draconic/etc should be limited however from classes that are allowed access to them by the rules. I think the layout Rei gave would be the thing to go with for initial creation languages, with allowing learned languages to be any of the non-secret ones.
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I just can't help feeling that this sort of thing locks us, as players, not characters (they're already locked out) out of part of the narrative simply for playing relatively low INT or low skill point characters who'd rather sink it into things like Discipline and Heal.
Instead of leaving it up to a script to manage, what about a middle path? A token with reference tags on various aspects about a character, including spoken language. New languages could be added by DM, but no scripting backend to hide the unknown languages. Same direction you're going, with most of the benefits and very little grief for people who share my view point.
This Token note could also be used to tag a PC for reference to something that a DM might also want other DMs to be aware of. The USE on the item should cough up things like "Speaks Common, Elvish, and Druid" and maybe "Marked by Juju's Magic as Protected till the time of the Slaughter" for whatever RP abilities that might confer for an elvish druid. Pay your points like normal, and the DM adds a new tag to it.
We enjoy a fairly strong honor code as it is. Most players, the majority of the time, do not metagame (per say…being in the right place at the right time due to an OOC agreement is largely a metagame. But it does not disrupt and thus we enjoy its liberal usage. But imagine a if you couldn't read the Tales section of the forums. Especially if a PC's writing their "private diary" in a language none of your characters speak. Now, all those IC threads in the town? Was your PC there for them? No? Then you can't read them. Of course, it's impossible to lock someone out of a thread like that, but it illustrates my point that we share so much with each other and we're talking about something that hedges that free flow of ideas in. And we're talking about a widget that would do the same to another section of our gameplay for the sake of a bit of realism I for one have never felt was dearly missed.
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Thanks for that post Rei. I couldn't access the SRD from work.
Also, since it seems some confusion. Those listed languages are not languages you get for free. They're languages you have the ability to buy. If you're human warrior is int 8 and spends all his skill points on class skills, he doesn't get to have any language other than common.
The only things that "automatically" gain languages that I can remember off hand is various races getting their "racial" language for free and Druids getting Druidic.
Eoden, I agree with you with regards to the regional languages. At the same time, simply put, not as many people are familiar with the intricacies of the Faerun rules compared to the general D&D rules and even those that are they hardly remember all the various regional languages. And even then, it seems you're just deeming certain languages as more valuable than others based on how much of a backstory would be needed to prove to you to deserve it. Would a human resident of Silverymoon really be more reasonble saying he can speak Chultan…a language used almost singularly in a country that's on literally the other end of the continent...rather than Elven, a language likely used widely in one of the cities with a larger than normal elven population?
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@5dde6b579f=Emerwyn:
Rei, I just spotted a small conflict in your post and one from Fraoch previously…
According your source Thieves' Cant is a secret language, like druidic, that can't be learned by spending any skill points on it (so tied to the rogue class, I presume).
Fraoch quoted something earlier saying that rogues do -need- to pay for Theives' Cant, like anyone else? Or did I get that wrong?
Druidic is a secret language which is gained automatically with a druid level.
Rogues do need to play for Thieves Cant with their 2 points, but they're the only ones who can.
I don't/wont have it on El since she's a ranger with rogue levels for trapping and no background with thieves who'd use/teach it.
Thank you for the ruling on lip reading. I'll get the second point into sign some time in the next few weeks.
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@2c82dae866=Vashpsycho:
Professor Roguely
Smackie McFacekill
Stealsworth Moneypockets
Oh, well… I don't have to think up names for my next 3 characters!
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Like I said before (just my own opinion) Thieves Cant is for Rogues who are thieves. Not anyone who has rogue as a class. Which I why I suspect you need to spend a skill point on it.
For instance Professor Roguely the Lawful Good rogue would likely not know thieves cant by default. Hence why it wouldn't be a default language.
Smackie McFacekill the Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue doesn't automatically know it because he isn't a thief, though if he was, he'd spend a point on Thieves Cant to use later when he took levels in rogue.
Stealsworth Moneypockets the CN Rogue learns thieves cant from his old thieves guild, as he is in fact a thief. edit He spends the point on Thieves Cant from creation.
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Well, thieves cant is a Forgotten Realms specific thing
My understanding is that only thieves can learn it, because no-one would teach it to a non-thief.
It's not covered by the D20 SRD. I included it in the secret languages section because I thought it relevant, not because the rules listed covered it.
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Rei, I just spotted a small conflict in your post and one from Fraoch previously…
According your source Thieves' Cant is a secret language, like druidic, that can't be learned by spending any skill points on it (so tied to the rogue class, I presume).
Fraoch quoted something earlier saying that rogues do -need- to pay for Theives' Cant, like anyone else? Or did I get that wrong?
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If languages were enforced according to the D&D 3.5 ruleset, there is a list of bonus languages for each race. IF your intelligence is over 11, then you have some you can pick, others you can't.
As an example, Dwarves get Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon as their options, if they have a higher than normal intelligence. Anything else, they have to spend skillpoints on.
Note that there's no Elven on that list. So, unless your Dwarf has spent points on it, don't expect a DM to let you be able to speak Elven.
Just so everyone knows what's out there…
@5c8427647a:
Dwarves get Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Elves get Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Gnomes get Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
Humans and Half-elves get any, bar secret languages (Druidic and Thieves Cant, etc)
Half-orcs get Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Hins get Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.In addition to this, some classes change how languages work
@5c8427647a:
Bards get Speak Language as a Class Skill, meaning that it only costs them 1 point, not 2, to learn a language.
Clerics add Abyssal, Celestial, and Infernal to their list of optional languages.
Druids add Sylvan to their list of optional languages
Wizards add Draconic to their list of optional languages.This is all as per the D20 SRD.
Personally, this is how I've been doing things for Narfell. As such, my bard has a lot of known languages. Other characters I have are more often than not, blissfully ignorant of what gets said around them.
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Sounds good Sethan, just a couple of points:
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Clerics can choose freely as additional language between Abyssal, Infernal and Celestial. Some Domains also give choice to additional planar languages (elemental languages related to elemental domains, for example). I presume this is why most banites could speak infernal, and at least it is why the only language Rith can speak besides common (and Chondothan, her native tongue), is Celestial.
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Tongues spell. Seriously. Should be possible to script burning a correct level spell to get a temp universal token to understand all languages, that you lose once the duration has expired.
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If I get to do this the way I want to, PCs will have an opportunity to pick languages out of a list when first created, and will get tokens for those languages at that time.
Language tokens will have a skill level on the token. The higher one's skill in the language, the better one is able to speak, understand, read, and write it. Language tokens will also keep track of whether they are INT or skill based.
The list will be a subset of the complete language list, and will be at least partially race-dependent. Things like celestial, infernal, and ignan will not be in the list. If you have a good RP reason why your starting PC would know a language not in the base list, a DM can give you a token for the language - but it had better be a -really- good reason. Personally I found it irritating when every new Banite spoke Infernal for a while.
Learning languages during play will also be possible, from anyone who has a higher skill in the language than you do. Any PC with a higher skill in a language than you do will be able to train you (with no DM involved) - they can also teach a new language, if you have unused language slots or spend the skill points to acquire one.
Someone with a low skill in a language will get only a partial translation when people speak in that language, or attempting to read it.
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Hehe to be fair Zyphlin, Forgotten Realms has loads of languages; think of the sheer number of regional languages.
I think it more likely someone from the Vast may know aside from Damaran, some Chondathan rather than dwarven maybe even some Illuskan? As those would be the languages more frequently encountered.
I think looking at things from that standpoint gives a far richer Roleplaying experience and preserves the feeling of the Realms and its different peoples and races.I should say: These are my views and do not represent the views of the DM team
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@abdd17046b=Zyphlin:
If I remember my 3/3.5 rules correctly, "Druidic" is a magical language and thus one not learnable through skill points unless someone is actually a part of that class.
I believe that's correct.
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If I remember my 3/3.5 rules correctly, "Druidic" is a magical language and thus one not learnable through skill points unless someone is actually a part of that class.
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@5ccf7af721=EodenValmer:
As for everyone knowing elven and dwarven, that is one of my pet hates…
Which elf sat for decades trying to teach the most nuance filled of languages knowing that a) Your PC doesn’t give a crap about the Seldarine b) Mocks elves etc. The same goes for dwarven, it’s a racial language that they cherish not taught to random idiots.I would asking for a detailed background on why half the folk I have seen understanding these languages know them, and if it didn’t measure up ask them to choose something else. Which would eliminate the issue of every half-orc and its cousin knowing elven/dwarven
This would be a way over the top, abitrary requirement though. Something we don't afford to ANY other portion of a starting characters background.
D&D has a limited amount of languages. It also is a system which specifically allows individuals a number of languages. Someone with a +3 int modifier gets to know 3 other languages and generally only has a few to choose from, especially if they're not a caster of some sort and thus don't have access initially by the rules for the "odd" languages like abyssal or draconic.
Every half-orc knowin elven AND dwarven in and of itself would need to have invested 9 points into intelligent I believe to get themselves a 14 and thus a +2 intellgence mod. Or if they were even an 8 int fighter would need to dedicate their entire levels worth of skill points to learn a language.
I understand the desire of wanting to see a backstory for people as to why they know a language, but that could apply to EVERY single skill. Its nice when people DO have an in depth reason for it, but there's no reason to apply it to languages anymore than anything else.
Adventurer's are the exception to the rules, which is why its more common for them to speak the various languages then say a commoner. In part its because they function in a world where interaction with other races isn't just common its pretty routine.
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@08a53891a1=Emerwyn:
Okay, how about this:
I'm a big fan of football (soccer in America) and often I go to Youtube to see how foreign commentators cry important goals that I like.
Often stumble upon Chinese (and Japanese) commentators.
And amongst all the gibberish I -easily- recognize everytime they say "Cristiano Ronaldo", "Messi", "Fernando Torres", etc. And also when they say "Real Madrid", "Barcelona" or any other capitalized name of a person, a country, a team or a city.
Give it a try yourself.
Because of this reason I've always thought it's a fair assumption that you can recognize most proper names when listening to a foreign language. If a PC wants to disguise it then they should take the time to say 'goggled gnome-hin' instead of 'Benji'
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WRT Read Lips, this is stated under the spot skill…
Read Lips
To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
