Languages
-
Like I said before (just my own opinion) Thieves Cant is for Rogues who are thieves. Not anyone who has rogue as a class. Which I why I suspect you need to spend a skill point on it.
For instance Professor Roguely the Lawful Good rogue would likely not know thieves cant by default. Hence why it wouldn't be a default language.
Smackie McFacekill the Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue doesn't automatically know it because he isn't a thief, though if he was, he'd spend a point on Thieves Cant to use later when he took levels in rogue.
Stealsworth Moneypockets the CN Rogue learns thieves cant from his old thieves guild, as he is in fact a thief. edit He spends the point on Thieves Cant from creation.
-
Well, thieves cant is a Forgotten Realms specific thing
My understanding is that only thieves can learn it, because no-one would teach it to a non-thief.
It's not covered by the D20 SRD. I included it in the secret languages section because I thought it relevant, not because the rules listed covered it.
-
Rei, I just spotted a small conflict in your post and one from Fraoch previously…
According your source Thieves' Cant is a secret language, like druidic, that can't be learned by spending any skill points on it (so tied to the rogue class, I presume).
Fraoch quoted something earlier saying that rogues do -need- to pay for Theives' Cant, like anyone else? Or did I get that wrong?
-
If languages were enforced according to the D&D 3.5 ruleset, there is a list of bonus languages for each race. IF your intelligence is over 11, then you have some you can pick, others you can't.
As an example, Dwarves get Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon as their options, if they have a higher than normal intelligence. Anything else, they have to spend skillpoints on.
Note that there's no Elven on that list. So, unless your Dwarf has spent points on it, don't expect a DM to let you be able to speak Elven.
Just so everyone knows what's out there…
@5c8427647a:
Dwarves get Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Elves get Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Gnomes get Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
Humans and Half-elves get any, bar secret languages (Druidic and Thieves Cant, etc)
Half-orcs get Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Hins get Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.In addition to this, some classes change how languages work
@5c8427647a:
Bards get Speak Language as a Class Skill, meaning that it only costs them 1 point, not 2, to learn a language.
Clerics add Abyssal, Celestial, and Infernal to their list of optional languages.
Druids add Sylvan to their list of optional languages
Wizards add Draconic to their list of optional languages.This is all as per the D20 SRD.
Personally, this is how I've been doing things for Narfell. As such, my bard has a lot of known languages. Other characters I have are more often than not, blissfully ignorant of what gets said around them.
-
Sounds good Sethan, just a couple of points:
-
Clerics can choose freely as additional language between Abyssal, Infernal and Celestial. Some Domains also give choice to additional planar languages (elemental languages related to elemental domains, for example). I presume this is why most banites could speak infernal, and at least it is why the only language Rith can speak besides common (and Chondothan, her native tongue), is Celestial.
-
Tongues spell. Seriously. Should be possible to script burning a correct level spell to get a temp universal token to understand all languages, that you lose once the duration has expired.
-
-
If I get to do this the way I want to, PCs will have an opportunity to pick languages out of a list when first created, and will get tokens for those languages at that time.
Language tokens will have a skill level on the token. The higher one's skill in the language, the better one is able to speak, understand, read, and write it. Language tokens will also keep track of whether they are INT or skill based.
The list will be a subset of the complete language list, and will be at least partially race-dependent. Things like celestial, infernal, and ignan will not be in the list. If you have a good RP reason why your starting PC would know a language not in the base list, a DM can give you a token for the language - but it had better be a -really- good reason. Personally I found it irritating when every new Banite spoke Infernal for a while.
Learning languages during play will also be possible, from anyone who has a higher skill in the language than you do. Any PC with a higher skill in a language than you do will be able to train you (with no DM involved) - they can also teach a new language, if you have unused language slots or spend the skill points to acquire one.
Someone with a low skill in a language will get only a partial translation when people speak in that language, or attempting to read it.
-
Hehe to be fair Zyphlin, Forgotten Realms has loads of languages; think of the sheer number of regional languages.
I think it more likely someone from the Vast may know aside from Damaran, some Chondathan rather than dwarven maybe even some Illuskan? As those would be the languages more frequently encountered.
I think looking at things from that standpoint gives a far richer Roleplaying experience and preserves the feeling of the Realms and its different peoples and races.I should say: These are my views and do not represent the views of the DM team
-
@abdd17046b=Zyphlin:
If I remember my 3/3.5 rules correctly, "Druidic" is a magical language and thus one not learnable through skill points unless someone is actually a part of that class.
I believe that's correct.
-
If I remember my 3/3.5 rules correctly, "Druidic" is a magical language and thus one not learnable through skill points unless someone is actually a part of that class.
-
@5ccf7af721=EodenValmer:
As for everyone knowing elven and dwarven, that is one of my pet hates…
Which elf sat for decades trying to teach the most nuance filled of languages knowing that a) Your PC doesn’t give a crap about the Seldarine b) Mocks elves etc. The same goes for dwarven, it’s a racial language that they cherish not taught to random idiots.I would asking for a detailed background on why half the folk I have seen understanding these languages know them, and if it didn’t measure up ask them to choose something else. Which would eliminate the issue of every half-orc and its cousin knowing elven/dwarven
This would be a way over the top, abitrary requirement though. Something we don't afford to ANY other portion of a starting characters background.
D&D has a limited amount of languages. It also is a system which specifically allows individuals a number of languages. Someone with a +3 int modifier gets to know 3 other languages and generally only has a few to choose from, especially if they're not a caster of some sort and thus don't have access initially by the rules for the "odd" languages like abyssal or draconic.
Every half-orc knowin elven AND dwarven in and of itself would need to have invested 9 points into intelligent I believe to get themselves a 14 and thus a +2 intellgence mod. Or if they were even an 8 int fighter would need to dedicate their entire levels worth of skill points to learn a language.
I understand the desire of wanting to see a backstory for people as to why they know a language, but that could apply to EVERY single skill. Its nice when people DO have an in depth reason for it, but there's no reason to apply it to languages anymore than anything else.
Adventurer's are the exception to the rules, which is why its more common for them to speak the various languages then say a commoner. In part its because they function in a world where interaction with other races isn't just common its pretty routine.
-
@08a53891a1=Emerwyn:
Okay, how about this:
I'm a big fan of football (soccer in America) and often I go to Youtube to see how foreign commentators cry important goals that I like.
Often stumble upon Chinese (and Japanese) commentators.
And amongst all the gibberish I -easily- recognize everytime they say "Cristiano Ronaldo", "Messi", "Fernando Torres", etc. And also when they say "Real Madrid", "Barcelona" or any other capitalized name of a person, a country, a team or a city.
Give it a try yourself.
Because of this reason I've always thought it's a fair assumption that you can recognize most proper names when listening to a foreign language. If a PC wants to disguise it then they should take the time to say 'goggled gnome-hin' instead of 'Benji'
-
WRT Read Lips, this is stated under the spot skill…
Read Lips
To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
-
Okay, how about this:
I'm a big fan of football (soccer in America) and often I go to Youtube to see how foreign commentators cry important goals that I like.
Often stumble upon Chinese (and Japanese) commentators.
And amongst all the gibberish I -easily- recognize everytime they say "Cristiano Ronaldo", "Messi", "Fernando Torres", etc. And also when they say "Real Madrid", "Barcelona" or any other capitalized name of a person, a country, a team or a city.
Give it a try yourself.
-
Like I said, if they just say the name, it's not that hard to identify, but when it's included in a sentence, it can be overlooked.
-
@f534ec8382:
Rith's name in Japanese would be, roughly, "Rissu" (REE-soo) リｯス, and it would be -very- hard to pick that out of a sentence and know that it's your name.
I have a Chinese friend. I asked him how my real name was pronounced in Chinese (my name is Albert). He said: "Albert" (just kinda funny "R", that sounds more like an "L").
Any language of Europe, America or Africa it'd be pronouned "Albert". So there is maybe one extremelly rare language where it could be pronounced a bit differently… (Japanese?) but that belongs to FR characters from a specific region, that I don't think we have any currently in Narfell (I'd say Tamiko, but he seems to speak "Chinese", not "Japanese").
About druidic... yeah best not to discuss, we'll just go way offtopic.
Agree with you in the sign and noise languages.
-
Oh I agree Eo. And I do agree with everyone saying that knowing Elven or Dwarven should be rather exclusive, and not something that average Joe just decided on the fly because they ran into such a conversation, which is why I don't like the idea of making language tokens just freely purchaseable for 2 skill points.
I'd still like to think nobody with a C-Token would do that. And if they don't have C-Token, they can be educated surely. Personally I haven't ran into this kind of situation ever since I returned to activity, but in any case I think everyone can agree that we are here not to exclude, but to embrace others into the community, and sometimes that takes being a bit lenient and willing to show the correct way to do things.
-
@015f3a205d=Rith:
(her name was said a few times, and names don't translate from one language to other, which is another fault of the language tokens, that DO tranlsate into gibberish names of people and places).
Eh, well, I only bring this up because I'm a stickler for details and RL languages, but names do get translated to a certain extent between languages. In some languages, the name sounds so different than it's supposed to that the owner of the name couldn't identify it in a sentence if it was repeated twelve times for her.
Another thing, though specifically on Druidic, is that some languages are barely perceivable as 'language' by those who do not understand or speak it. For example, a language composed purely of whistling sounds or humming. For the most part, these languages don't exist in real life, but they do often exist in fantasy. It would be difficult to notice one's name if, in 'Bird-man' is was "FWEEET."
I'm not a huge fan of discussing Druidic, as I've always thought of it was a 'ritual language,' and not a language to be used for day-to-day discussions, as it is in Narfell. That aside, I've gathered (very loosely) that Druidic is one of the above-mentioned languages that have so little similarity to Common/English that it would be nearly impossible to distinguish words or names. Then again, that's only based on what I'm told by Druid players.
But, because we cannot know exactly (for the most part) how a language works, it is usually safe to assume that a character who does not speak the language understands -none- of it. Rith's name in Japanese would be, roughly, "Rissu" (REE-soo) リｯス, and it would be -very- hard to pick that out of a sentence and know that it's your name. Now, if someone said, "Rissu" and looked at or indicated Rith, then one might be able to guess. Then again, they could just be saying 'her' or some other very simple concept.
In short: I like to make a habit of having my characters be unaware of -anything- that is said in a language they don't understand. In cases where they might, I chalk it up to coincidence.
On Eoden's point, I agree, for the most part. Knowing a language shouldn't be something that simply 'is' because you spent two skill points for it. There should be a good reason that character knows the language. The fact that it's incredibly common in Narfell is not a good reason, unless your character has spent a long time here, or they came to Narfell aware of the usefulness for Elven, and they were planning on being here a long time, so they studied it -for a long time- before coming.
I also think that languages should have different skill point requirements, if you're going to use that method, depending on the difficulty of learning. For example, Elven is such a complex language that it takes over a century to have become 'adult' in its use. One of the reasons Elves are considered 'younger than an adult' when they're still ninety is because their language is such a difficult one to grasp and learn.
And I wish to disclaim any favoritism of Elven, given that one of my mains is an Elf. I actually resent it. I try to speak Common when I can, - even Havon, IC, tries to speak Common instead of Elven when he can get away with it. It's just that "Elf" was the best race for my character concept, and because he's an Elf, other Elves tend to speak it to him.
-
I'd like to think the RP nature would trump anything else, and no-one is entitled to anything, it has to justifiable IC.
There are very clear points in the FR literature regarding elven for example. The nuance of the language and its complexity etc; as in all things, making everything equal in value, diminishes the rare. That is what I feel has happened in Narfell to some extent. You pay your points, learn your language and half the background, rarity and interest of Realms lore flies out the window in a soulless way.
-
@0b06208c71=EodenValmer:
As for everyone knowing elven and dwarven, that is one of my pet hates…
Which elf sat for decades trying to teach the most nuance filled of languages knowing that a) Your PC doesn’t give a crap about the Seldarine b) Mocks elves etc. The same goes for dwarven, it’s a racial language that they cherish not taught to random idiots.I would asking for a detailed background on why half the folk I have seen understanding these languages know them, and if it didn’t measure up ask them to choose something else. Which would eliminate the issue of every half-orc and its cousin knowing elven/dwarven
Thing is Eoden, if you put ingame language tokens at 2 skill point cost (as per PnP) you can't really ask people more background than you ask someone for having 12 Discipline or 9 Hide.
As far as I know if they paid the 2 skill points you automatically assume that they went to an elf/dwarf/gnome/orc/bear/duck school and learned the language. And rightly so, as they paid for it, the same way you pay for any other skill, feat or perk. For example, while I do have background stories about it, I've had nobody ever ask me IC or OOC why Rith can turn demons, or why she has high persuade score. Everyone assumes I took the feats and skills for it, so it's fair game.
Most PCs also have at least one elven friend that would teach it if asked. And in the worst case what's to stop anyone from saying "I took a trip to the Great Dale, made friends with an elf and he taught me the language".
Back to the main topic, that tokens add flavour, I won't discuss, though I don't like the way tokens exclude players OOCly, and to me personally typing <e>or <d>adds the flavour alright. But in the end it becomes tons of dev work and DM rulings to change something that has never been an issue. When people want to say something they don't want others to understand, they talk in private. Unless one can find appealing the fact that their characters could insult others in their face without them knowing OOCly (because ICly they still don't nowadays).
And as someone has mentioned before, sure unconscious metagame exists, but there you are to put stop to it, by being a self-respecting roleplayer. I can tell how Vash and Horlamin not very long ago spent once around 20 minutes badmouthing Rith in some language just in front of her, and she still got along with them afterwards. Even after she had been whispering Ronan about how she didn't trust them (her name was said a few times, and names don't translate from one language to other, which is another fault of the language tokens, that DO tranlsate into gibberish names of people and places).
And as Rico brilliantly put, anyone with more than one active character is not forced a memory wipe when switching to avoid subconscious metagame. We just trust that if we have a C-token, is because we are all self-respecting roleplayers that will be fair game about all the aspects of RP.</d></e>
-
I'd be in favour of a token if it was a) easy to implement and b) easy to use. I'm a bit of a slow typer, so the latter would definitely matter in how or if I used the language token myself. Where my bard character's concerned, I like to imagine she has a certain understanding of the written form of several languages, while not necessarily mastering the spoken version (except partially), as I've not actually spent skillpoints on languages for her part.
