Languages
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@08a53891a1=Emerwyn:
Okay, how about this:
I'm a big fan of football (soccer in America) and often I go to Youtube to see how foreign commentators cry important goals that I like.
Often stumble upon Chinese (and Japanese) commentators.
And amongst all the gibberish I -easily- recognize everytime they say "Cristiano Ronaldo", "Messi", "Fernando Torres", etc. And also when they say "Real Madrid", "Barcelona" or any other capitalized name of a person, a country, a team or a city.
Give it a try yourself.
Because of this reason I've always thought it's a fair assumption that you can recognize most proper names when listening to a foreign language. If a PC wants to disguise it then they should take the time to say 'goggled gnome-hin' instead of 'Benji'
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WRT Read Lips, this is stated under the spot skill…
Read Lips
To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
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Okay, how about this:
I'm a big fan of football (soccer in America) and often I go to Youtube to see how foreign commentators cry important goals that I like.
Often stumble upon Chinese (and Japanese) commentators.
And amongst all the gibberish I -easily- recognize everytime they say "Cristiano Ronaldo", "Messi", "Fernando Torres", etc. And also when they say "Real Madrid", "Barcelona" or any other capitalized name of a person, a country, a team or a city.
Give it a try yourself.
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Like I said, if they just say the name, it's not that hard to identify, but when it's included in a sentence, it can be overlooked.
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@f534ec8382:
Rith's name in Japanese would be, roughly, "Rissu" (REE-soo) リｯス, and it would be -very- hard to pick that out of a sentence and know that it's your name.
I have a Chinese friend. I asked him how my real name was pronounced in Chinese (my name is Albert). He said: "Albert" (just kinda funny "R", that sounds more like an "L").
Any language of Europe, America or Africa it'd be pronouned "Albert". So there is maybe one extremelly rare language where it could be pronounced a bit differently… (Japanese?) but that belongs to FR characters from a specific region, that I don't think we have any currently in Narfell (I'd say Tamiko, but he seems to speak "Chinese", not "Japanese").
About druidic... yeah best not to discuss, we'll just go way offtopic.
Agree with you in the sign and noise languages.
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Oh I agree Eo. And I do agree with everyone saying that knowing Elven or Dwarven should be rather exclusive, and not something that average Joe just decided on the fly because they ran into such a conversation, which is why I don't like the idea of making language tokens just freely purchaseable for 2 skill points.
I'd still like to think nobody with a C-Token would do that. And if they don't have C-Token, they can be educated surely. Personally I haven't ran into this kind of situation ever since I returned to activity, but in any case I think everyone can agree that we are here not to exclude, but to embrace others into the community, and sometimes that takes being a bit lenient and willing to show the correct way to do things.
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@015f3a205d=Rith:
(her name was said a few times, and names don't translate from one language to other, which is another fault of the language tokens, that DO tranlsate into gibberish names of people and places).
Eh, well, I only bring this up because I'm a stickler for details and RL languages, but names do get translated to a certain extent between languages. In some languages, the name sounds so different than it's supposed to that the owner of the name couldn't identify it in a sentence if it was repeated twelve times for her.
Another thing, though specifically on Druidic, is that some languages are barely perceivable as 'language' by those who do not understand or speak it. For example, a language composed purely of whistling sounds or humming. For the most part, these languages don't exist in real life, but they do often exist in fantasy. It would be difficult to notice one's name if, in 'Bird-man' is was "FWEEET."
I'm not a huge fan of discussing Druidic, as I've always thought of it was a 'ritual language,' and not a language to be used for day-to-day discussions, as it is in Narfell. That aside, I've gathered (very loosely) that Druidic is one of the above-mentioned languages that have so little similarity to Common/English that it would be nearly impossible to distinguish words or names. Then again, that's only based on what I'm told by Druid players.
But, because we cannot know exactly (for the most part) how a language works, it is usually safe to assume that a character who does not speak the language understands -none- of it. Rith's name in Japanese would be, roughly, "Rissu" (REE-soo) リｯス, and it would be -very- hard to pick that out of a sentence and know that it's your name. Now, if someone said, "Rissu" and looked at or indicated Rith, then one might be able to guess. Then again, they could just be saying 'her' or some other very simple concept.
In short: I like to make a habit of having my characters be unaware of -anything- that is said in a language they don't understand. In cases where they might, I chalk it up to coincidence.
On Eoden's point, I agree, for the most part. Knowing a language shouldn't be something that simply 'is' because you spent two skill points for it. There should be a good reason that character knows the language. The fact that it's incredibly common in Narfell is not a good reason, unless your character has spent a long time here, or they came to Narfell aware of the usefulness for Elven, and they were planning on being here a long time, so they studied it -for a long time- before coming.
I also think that languages should have different skill point requirements, if you're going to use that method, depending on the difficulty of learning. For example, Elven is such a complex language that it takes over a century to have become 'adult' in its use. One of the reasons Elves are considered 'younger than an adult' when they're still ninety is because their language is such a difficult one to grasp and learn.
And I wish to disclaim any favoritism of Elven, given that one of my mains is an Elf. I actually resent it. I try to speak Common when I can, - even Havon, IC, tries to speak Common instead of Elven when he can get away with it. It's just that "Elf" was the best race for my character concept, and because he's an Elf, other Elves tend to speak it to him.
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I'd like to think the RP nature would trump anything else, and no-one is entitled to anything, it has to justifiable IC.
There are very clear points in the FR literature regarding elven for example. The nuance of the language and its complexity etc; as in all things, making everything equal in value, diminishes the rare. That is what I feel has happened in Narfell to some extent. You pay your points, learn your language and half the background, rarity and interest of Realms lore flies out the window in a soulless way.
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@0b06208c71=EodenValmer:
As for everyone knowing elven and dwarven, that is one of my pet hates…
Which elf sat for decades trying to teach the most nuance filled of languages knowing that a) Your PC doesn’t give a crap about the Seldarine b) Mocks elves etc. The same goes for dwarven, it’s a racial language that they cherish not taught to random idiots.I would asking for a detailed background on why half the folk I have seen understanding these languages know them, and if it didn’t measure up ask them to choose something else. Which would eliminate the issue of every half-orc and its cousin knowing elven/dwarven
Thing is Eoden, if you put ingame language tokens at 2 skill point cost (as per PnP) you can't really ask people more background than you ask someone for having 12 Discipline or 9 Hide.
As far as I know if they paid the 2 skill points you automatically assume that they went to an elf/dwarf/gnome/orc/bear/duck school and learned the language. And rightly so, as they paid for it, the same way you pay for any other skill, feat or perk. For example, while I do have background stories about it, I've had nobody ever ask me IC or OOC why Rith can turn demons, or why she has high persuade score. Everyone assumes I took the feats and skills for it, so it's fair game.
Most PCs also have at least one elven friend that would teach it if asked. And in the worst case what's to stop anyone from saying "I took a trip to the Great Dale, made friends with an elf and he taught me the language".
Back to the main topic, that tokens add flavour, I won't discuss, though I don't like the way tokens exclude players OOCly, and to me personally typing <e>or <d>adds the flavour alright. But in the end it becomes tons of dev work and DM rulings to change something that has never been an issue. When people want to say something they don't want others to understand, they talk in private. Unless one can find appealing the fact that their characters could insult others in their face without them knowing OOCly (because ICly they still don't nowadays).
And as someone has mentioned before, sure unconscious metagame exists, but there you are to put stop to it, by being a self-respecting roleplayer. I can tell how Vash and Horlamin not very long ago spent once around 20 minutes badmouthing Rith in some language just in front of her, and she still got along with them afterwards. Even after she had been whispering Ronan about how she didn't trust them (her name was said a few times, and names don't translate from one language to other, which is another fault of the language tokens, that DO tranlsate into gibberish names of people and places).
And as Rico brilliantly put, anyone with more than one active character is not forced a memory wipe when switching to avoid subconscious metagame. We just trust that if we have a C-token, is because we are all self-respecting roleplayers that will be fair game about all the aspects of RP.</d></e>
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I'd be in favour of a token if it was a) easy to implement and b) easy to use. I'm a bit of a slow typer, so the latter would definitely matter in how or if I used the language token myself. Where my bard character's concerned, I like to imagine she has a certain understanding of the written form of several languages, while not necessarily mastering the spoken version (except partially), as I've not actually spent skillpoints on languages for her part.
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As for everyone knowing elven and dwarven, that is one of my pet hates…
Which elf sat for decades trying to teach the most nuance filled of languages knowing that a) Your PC doesn’t give a crap about the Seldarine b) Mocks elves etc. The same goes for dwarven, it’s a racial language that they cherish not taught to random idiots.I would asking for a detailed background on why half the folk I have seen understanding these languages know them, and if it didn’t measure up ask them to choose something else. Which would eliminate the issue of every half-orc and its cousin knowing elven/dwarven
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@c74899b022=rei_jin:
Personally? I don't care either way. I think it could lead to more conflict though, as people are (generally speaking) careful about insulting or degrading others when they can hear them. At the moment, even if you're talking in another language about someone, they can read it, so most people tend to be polite..
Careful about insulting people in another language? Heh, the only reason people switch to another language is to insult someone. It's the only reason I've ever seen. To my characters, to other's characters. I've seen people insulting someone else in another language for nearly half an hour, not stopping. This is especially true if the other character they're insulting is a higher level, or would do something about being insulted if they understood.
I dont mind this, to an extent. And honestly, I'd -much- rather not know what they're saying about someone… positive or negative (But moreso negative). It's really difficult not to react when you, the player, know exactly what they're saying. It could lead to accidental metagaming, which includes: Not involving yourself with the character that's insulting on a constant basis, your character (which technically didnt understand) would suddenly not like the insulting character, and so on..
I've even seen insults in another language in public forum RP, where pretty much no one else but the poster and one or two others knew what they were talking about. That really gets on my nerves, since it's just a waste. You want to say something to someone privately, whether it be insult or otherwise, dont put it up publicly, both in the forums or in game. Have some OOC consideration, because OOCly, I know what you're saying. Whisper it, use tells. Yes, it's fine if you say some insulting remark in another language once or twice publicly as your character's show of annoyance to another character... but doing it constantly is just poor form in my opinion.
An example: When people insulted Jay out loud in other languages, because they knew he didn't understand... and this was done on a constant basis. Sure, you hate Jay, great.. dont expect you to like him. But I'd much rather you whisper your thoughts, then emote something along the lines of: speaks in dwarven (or undercommon, or whatever) to his companion, chuckling as he does so. That way, I know you're speaking dwarven, or whatever, and if my character knew the language, I could send a tell and ask what was said... if not, then I dont ask, and I've no clue what they just said... which is what I'd prefer as a player
My two cents. Hope it didn't go too off topic, if so I apologise. My opinion is that we dont really need language tokens, or to give devs some other project. All it takes is a bit of consideration, finding ways to make metagaming less possible via whisper or tell, and so on and so forth.
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Personally? I don't care either way. I think it could lead to more conflict though, as people are (generally speaking) careful about insulting or degrading others when they can hear them. At the moment, even if you're talking in another language about someone, they can read it, so most people tend to be polite.
Some RPers on the server just act IC, regardless of the circumstances, and the way that other players may view it. This is great, and what I'd love to see. That said though, I can see it leading to much hilarity around gnomes and such.
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I find it very surprising that people would have a problem with the language cipher. I for one always thought it was a very cool idea…the feel of a couple of elves talking in elven to one another would suddenly have a much greater impact. Knowing unusual languages would suddenly make so much more of an impact on your character, and would make roleplaying with other races much more rewarding as it adds to the feel of the differences between the races (one of my favourite aspects of the Forgotten Realms setting). Its not that I'm obsessed with realism, I just love the fantasy setting and this would add to that atmosphere greatly.
If the technical barrier of implementing such a system is no longer an issue (the spamming the DM channel thing), then I would be very eager to get it ingame.
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We are more than the sum of our skill points.
We share a common love of the world, not just our own artificial egos. As a player, not as Rico the Knight of Sune, or Ethan the Storyteller, or any of my others, I would resent such a barrier (which is not the same as resenting the players who prefer the realism; I do not). We make allowances and capitulations in the name of the narrative all the time, and compartmentalize data which our other egos are incapable of having. I don't need a memory wipe to keep information from one character spilling over to the other, and I don't need a script widget to keep me from reading things my character doesn't understand.
I don't mean to sound harsh on the subject, but those are my feelings in a nutshell.
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Having an on/off language switch in the inventory would be problematic for me because my PC often switches between languages mid sentence.
Doing it the other way where it garbles text that is tagged as a different language works fine for me though.
Another aspect that this could affect is the roleplay of learning languages. It's difficult for a player to roleplay a partial understanding of a language if all they see of the language is garbled text.
I wouldn't mind it though. I think it's more fun not understanding.
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There are diferent versions, but that's pretty much it, Benji.
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How does a system like this work?
Do you get a useable item in your inventory that you 'turn on' when you're speaking the different language?
Does it filter tagged text (<g>, <e>, etc) that you read based on whether or not you have the token in inventory?</e></g>
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I find a few posts borderline insulting, let's try to keep it civil, please. Trying to make others seem inferior because of their opinion about what is fun and what is not leads nowhere.
To reiterate myself: Language token, yes - when there's Tongues spell. It's only fair.
And even then you risk 100% of the Narfell population having the elven token for no reason at all - just because annoying elves for life just costs at worst 2 points in Craft Armor - most cases it's just free through Int score.
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The Narfell playerbase never ceases to amaze me. I can't believe how outspokenly against language tokens/ciphers some people are.
If your character doesn't know and understand the language anyways, what is the big deal if you can't read it? Do you not want to lose the ability to "subconsciously" metagame? That's what it sounds like to me. I for one love this idea and have always wanted to see it implemented in Narfell. I completely agree with Zyphlin's points. I think it would only enhance roleplaying situations between GOOD roleplayers. Saying you are going to just log off sounds pouty and whiny if you ask me. Roll with it, RP it! It's what you're here for, am I right?
