3. Tips for Paladins

Tips for Paladins


  • @a771471e1d=Vilehelm:

    @a771471e1d=Anti-Paladins:

    Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of good have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.

    What "unique champion of evil" is there IG as a base class?

    That aside, useful info.


  • Bump an old but good post. I found it buried in an FAQ post somewhere, but it's hard to get to sometimes. So of the old aggregating threads have bad links.


  • Removing the argument from an INFORMATIONAL post.


  • Thanks for taking the time to write that up, you had some useful tips, anyways I thought it was pretty good, take care.

    -Arthus


  • Due to a lack of information on paladin orders and their allowed multiclassing rules, I felt it nessicary to post this here, this is a list of the paladin allowed gods, the name of their knightly orders and the allowed multiclassing rules for that paladin order…I won't hide that I borrowed this from Arabel, because their information is easy to find.

    So! here we are.

    Deity-Order -Multiclass Allowed
    Arvoreen - Arvoreen's Marchers - cleric, fighter, rogue.
    Baravar - Knights of the Shadowy Cloak - cleric, fighter, illusionist, rogue.
    Berronar - Berronar's Valkyries - cleric, dwarven defender.
    Chauntea - Field Guardians - cleric, divine champion
    Gaerdal - Shields of the Golden Hills - cleric, fighter
    Helm - Vigilant Eyes of the God - cleric, fighter, divine champion, Purple Dragon knight.
    Horus-Re - Claws of the Sun and the Ankh - cleric, divine champion,
    Ilmater - Order of the Golden Cup - cleric
    Ilmater - Companions of the Noble Heart - divine champion, fighter.
    Kelemvor - Knights of the Eternal Order - cleric, doomguide
    Lathander - Order of the Aster - cleric, divine champion, Purple Dragon knight
    Milil - Harmonious Order - fighter
    Moradin - Hammers of Moradin - cleric, fighter, divine champion,
    dwarven defender
    Mystra - Knights of the Mystic Fire - Wizard.
    Nobanion - Legion of Lions (wemics and werelions only) - cleric,
    divine champion.
    Osiris - Order of the Risen Scepter - cleric, ranger.
    Red Knight - Order of the Red Falcon - divine champion, fighter.
    Siamorphe - Order of the Silver Chalice - fighter
    Sune - Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose - devine champion.
    Torm - Order of the Golden Lion - Any one other class.
    Tyr - Knights of Holy Judgment - cleric, divine champion
    Tyr - Knights of the Merciful Sword - fighter, divine champion.
    Yondalla - Shields of Yondalla - monk (Hin Fist)
    Yondalla - Wayward Wardens - cleric, ranger


  • I have always seen the Paladin of the Forgotten Realms as being a champion of their god, much as the Paladin kit of Divinate. This is due to paladins having a specific god and church allegiance in the realms. They are holy warriors but not the crusader class of old (sorry 2e player). Where as clerics and crusaders are part of the church staple the paladin is a separate entity, thus the creation of the Orders. As regarding the rank of a cleric or paladin this is entirely dependant upon the church in question. Also a paladin is given great boons by their god, they may not be great spell casters but they are granted many abilities, which include a bonded mount….*grumbles *. The code of the realms paladins is recorded in Quentin’s Monograph and is as follows:

    The Paladins Virtues are:
    An organised approach brings the most good for all
    Laws exist to bring prosperity under them
    Unjust laws must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion
    People rule; laws help
    Cause the most good through the least harm.
    Protect the weak
    Goodness is not a natural state, but must be fought for to be attained and maintained.
    Lead by example
    Let your deeds speak your intentions
    Goodness radiates from the heart
    Give others your mercy, but keep your wits about you.

    Please note that all of this is from 2e source material. Oh and on an interesting note about ranks of paladins, remember Torm was Tyr’s paladin.


  • As I see it, a cleric isn't the same as a priest. Priests maintain temples, holds services and tend to the needs of the local population. A cleric, of course, can and often will do these things as well, but is trained more to be an agent of his or her god. They spread the deity's influence, recover artifacts and relics, and hunt down enemies of the church. In a way, they are crusaders. Holy warriors, endowed with blessings of their gods, which allow them to best carry out His or Her will. This is also reflected in the armor and weapon proficiencies a cleric gains.

    In my eyes, a paladin is a knight first and foremost. Dedicated to Good and Law. However, Paladins often take on a patron deity with matching dogma (such as Tyr, Torm, Helm, Lathander and Illmater) to the knightly principles. They fight for that god, and in return are given some of the deity's power (spells), but not as much as the cleric.
    Paladins are not the holy warriors of the church. That's what clerics are. Of course, therre are many different gods in Faeruhn, and not all clerics are crusading heroes/villains of their god. However, their training and spells are designed towards this crusader goal.

    One final thought: as such, clerics technically "outrank" paladins, as they are fully dedicated to service of their gods, while Paladins (although they can be quite dedicated, and perhaps even more than a cleric) are warriors in a god's cause, and little else. They are not gurus, they are not champions, and they are definitly not fit as emmisaries of their god.
    They are temple guards and defenders. They are escorts of clergy. They augment the cleric's martial capabilities with their own, giving up the cleric's advanced spellcasting.

  • DM

    Aside from the -excellent- guide from shadevar.. here are my tips:

    Decide on faith before opening the character creation engine..
    Read the 3.0 Dogma..
    Consider how wise and intelligent they are going to be as to the nature of guru or blind faith zealot they are likely to be..
    Faiths have many arms, and you may come from wildly differing lands, so consider that and how it reflects on your paladin nature.

    A temple-raised tormite in tantras is going to be different from a elf-raised woods-loving tyr paladin.

    If clerics reposnsabilites are to the flock and to the expansion of their faiths, and their status in the eyes of the deity is down to dealing with their faith and their followers, then a paladins status and standing is more on a knife-(or sword) edge. Opportunities for success and failure/fall may appear within moments of each other.

    Play to the paladins strengths, and remember what enemies paladins are best suited to fight.

    I am always interested in hearing interesting concepts from players on paladins, so feel free to speak to me anytime about them. I always watch and enjoy seeing paladin and cleric roleplay.


  • My paladin has points in taunt…I just have to think of using it more often!


  • Though I have not played a paladin on Narfell yet. My primary character on my previous server was a paladin. About a year and a half worth of time invested in Will.
    I just wanted to point out if you have the urge, taunt is a typically overlooked skill. It's not just for bards 🙂 Paladins have the benefit of high charisma to correlate into some good taunt rolls. And, unlike bards, paladins can use the temporarily decreased ac to deal some serious damage.


  • @13f2d2827f=ZANETAR:

    Fine, fine, Zyph… I'll play along.

    If there is a warrior gaining divine power through Law and Good (as domains), then why isn't there one for Chaos and Evil? ... There you go ... Unbalanced.

    As a reply to this I'll post a quote from an out of date D&D booklet, which may not show he rules, but which does show the -spirit- of the paladin:

    @13f2d2827f=Anti-Paladins:

    What better nemesis for a paladin than his direct opposite, an "anti-paladin" that embodies the forces of evil? As themirror image of a normal paladin, an anit-paladin might be able to detect the presence of good, generate an aura of protection against good creatures, and wield an "unholy" sword.

    Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of good have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.


  • Fine, fine, Zyph… I'll play along.

    If there is a warrior gaining divine power through Law and Good (as domains), then why isn't there one for Chaos and Evil? ... There you go ... Unbalanced.


  • Yep 😉 You hit it on the head. "Good" and "Law" are powers of thier own by the Core rules, as are anything else that has a domain. They are actual realms and philosophies of those things that are divine in nature and thus grant the power through the belief in it. Its the same reason why in 3.0 you can have a Cleric of Destruction. Not following a god that likes destruction, but worships the aspect and concept of Destruction itself. They could have say the destruction domain (duh) and possibly lets say "Fire" domain because fire destroys things or "War" domain because Through war there is destruction 😉 They made the Core Rules so that you don't HAVE to have gods or follow gods so that it was a more wide open and accessible game path.

    So to answer what you said. Yes, the paladin in the core 3.0 rules does get his divine abilities from the concepts of Good and Law and to deviate from a Paladins Code is to lose touch with those concepts and thus fall

  • ?

    The odd thing about what is said in the 3.0 PHP Zyphlin is that, "Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers" and "Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment". In both cases referring to the paladins powers as powered by the divine. And unless the force of Good and the force of Law are actual divine powers that can grant those abilities… then individual gods must be the source of their power and inspiration.

    But then it does go on to say that "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most." So the PHP kinda leaves it up in the air as to why a god would grant them powers if they do not serve that god as a zealous advocate to that individual god. And then what would be the ultimate purpose behind the paladin class?

    Good thing we are in the FR campaign where they spell it out, "All paladins of Faerûn are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins."

  • ?

    @3386cc3158=Gildor:

    Clerics: Holy priest of the God
    Paladin: Holy warrior of the God

    stating the obvious sort of here..

    IMHO Paladins should be sort of serving the clerics

    but don't quote me on that

    😉

    More like paladins are the do'ers and clerics are the say'ers. In terms of one serving the other? Who tends to be more fanatical? The priest who officiates congregations of faithful in a temple? Or a crusader who decides to convert heathens by force and action? I would say that one does not report to the other… rather... they are probably more conservative and zealous branches of the same organization. Kind of like the difference between the Sierra Club and the ecco-terrorist that spike trees and chain themselves to them.


  • Hehe, this is actually rather moot. The point of a paladin by 3.0 D&D is a Holy Warrior for Good and Law. Not a god. For the forces of Good and Law. You want your holy warrior for a god, thats what a cleric is. Doesn't mean a paladin doesn't follow a god, but its not needed in 3e core rules, you fight for law and good.

    However, Faerun is to much of a god laden world for that, and the use of "forces" as divine energies doesn't fly in Toril. SOOOOO, paladins have ot have a good in Faerun and they are the holy champions of that god. However, so as not to make Lawful good Gods be teh only ones with Holy Champions they made an AMAZINGLY easy Prestidge class to get into called the Divine Champion which should pretty much be called 'Paladin without being or following a Lawful Good person" 😉 For some strange reason NWN decided to change this to Champion of Torm instead of Divine Champion (no freaking idea why). But that is how PnP handled the weird thing of a paladin seeming to overlap purpose with a cleric


  • Clerics: Holy priest of the God
    Paladin: Holy warrior of the God

    stating the obvious sort of here..

    IMHO Paladins should be sort of serving the clerics

    but don't quote me on that

    😉

  • ?

    @f37c0623e7=Kanen_Hightower:

    @f37c0623e7=robilar:

    Clerics are divine warriors.
    Paladins are what were originally Cavaliers. They are mounted knights that fight for honor and (now) faith but the true agents of the priesthood are the clerics.

    This is incorrect. The Paladin subclass of Fighter was around much earlier than the Cavalier Paladin that you are referring to. Paladins have always been LG Holy warriors (they used to get even more perks that made this more evident). Check your sources.

    Perhaps robilar was referring to real life?

    Historically, paladins, as we have come to us the term in a modern sense was first used in that way around 1050 AD. The knights of Charlemange were reffered to as paladins. The word dates back to Roman times when it referred to palatines… or an officer of the Palatium or Byzantine palace. Basically a noble land owner.

    The term cavaliers on the other hand, only really started being used synonomously with paladins and knights in 1588 AD. They were royalist supporter of Charles I during the English Civil War. And the entymology of cavailer comes from caballarius which late latin for horseman.

    The chivalric code more often refers to the paladin... where the cavalier would be more like cavalry officer. Both had codes of conduct, but one was more of an militaty officer's code and the other was more of a noble's code of governance.

    Now in terms of D&D? Yeah... the cavalier was defintely an add on after the paladin... if I remember correctly, it was first brought out as a concept in Dragon Magazine prior to the subclass being added on to the paladin. Basically the idea was to have a class that was a knight who followed a lord and country, rather than a holy crusader that followed a religious doctrine.


  • Divine warrior, cleric, meh…

    You know what I meant. Having the one class that is specific to LG tips the game out of balance. I look at a paladin as being something of blend between a warrior and a priest. (Technically this is incorrect, but bear with me.) Only allowing this type of 'blended' class to LG characters is kinda… yeah.

    Not that it matters anyways. This thread wasn't intended to discuss what DnD ought or ought not have or do. I'll be quiet.


  • @10614774ae=robilar:

    Clerics are divine warriors.

    Paladins are what were originally Cavaliers. They are mounted knights that fight for honor and (now) faith but the true agents of the priesthood are the clerics.

    This is incorrect. The Paladin subclass of Fighter was around much earlier than the Cavalier Paladin that you are referring to. Paladins have always been LG Holy warriors (they used to get even more perks that made this more evident). Check your sources.