3. You died. Could you have helped it?

You died. Could you have helped it?


  • On my cell so i won't elaborate in this post to much.
    I just noticed emer and gonnars criticisms to my little rant but one thing you both mentioned was that pcx or so and so are not or were not dms when they achieved level x..

    I never mentioned anything about ooc information helping anyone get to any level

    This topic is about survival any my post said high lvl chars have a much higher chance. . .

    How you got to be high level is irrelevant.

    You make it sound like I'm accusing the dms of powergaming using ooc knowledge but that's not the case.

    A lvl 7 pc wandering into bugbear territory having never fought bugbears is less likely to survive vs a lvl 16 pc wandering into bugbear territory having never fought them
    But a lvl 7 pc who ooc knows what the bugbears can do can prepare for it and hopefully survive
    Yet a dm pc will know what hd, hp, ab, and saves they have so is not going to waste magic or feats or abilities on them knowing it will fail anyway.

    Again i don't hold it against you because there's nothing you can do to help it and you're not going to voluntarily get yourself killed to avoid it.

    Now that circle of death has no material component I've been having a blast finding out what enemies i can kill with it and what i cannot, i see it as an opportunity for my wizard to earn her spellcraft skill and knowledge of magic but i have put myself in situations where is nearly got me killed because the spells failed and the enemies closed in

    And gonnar i am looking forward to the tips you bring


  • In larger groups if you have a composition of mostly front-line fighters it can be to your benefit to just stick to range. Even if you can handle mele against them if the front line gets to cluttered it is a drain on resources. Buff spells should be on everyone up front (unless there are magic eaters I suppose) and there are only so many buff spells to go around. It is also a lot harder to know who to heal, and get to them when the front lines are cluttered.

    Troff is designed to be a front line tank. He's got a high AC, good hp, and DR. I still will often fall back to archery if I know the front line doesn't need me. My bow isn't the greatest ever made and I don't really have any special arrows on me but I stay ready to fill the gaps or cover the rear.

    As Marty pointed out running is super important. Even if you know it's time to get out I've seen a lot of people not want to get out of sight of the fight/other party members. This is killer because it means the tanks can't afford to disengage because you are in the way of there retreat. If you're int he back (like I frequently was on Belma'r and Creg) you can often save the most lives by being a map and a half away when it's time to leg it.

    I remember once when doing a fighting retreat from the Underdark Troff was holding off a magic eater. I'd given the run order and I knew with my Barbarian speed I could easily outrun the thing. The problem was this also meant I could outrun my fellow party members so I needed them basically out of the map. One rogue stayed behind and tried to help, which is admirable, but ended up nearly blowing up in our faces.

  • Legion

    @8d4ab72ff9:

    But there's also potential for great stories because someone took the chance of death.

    Utterly true.
    One of my most memorable moments in Narfell was during the N'Jast war. Massive armatures were lumbering up the pass toward the ridge, and Marty was ordered to "hold them off" until the archers could escape to the other side of the ridge. .. hold them off … a lvl 7 hin armed with mundane gear. She drew her dagger and did her best. I figured that Marty sacrificing herself to save others - even if that sacrifice amounted to little more than a squishy speed hump - would be a death worth dying. She got a medal for it. You really can't beat that kind of stuff.

    But there is a world of difference between dying with great story behind you and dying because you weren't quick enough on that healing potion hotkey.


  • @5b7534f74f=M_O_B:

    And let's not forget the DMs who never got a character past level 10.

    coughmecough

    Knowing enemy stats is only half the battle, if that.

    @5b7534f74f=Sun:

    “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

    I think this sums up pretty much everything. A good part of not dying is knowing what you can and cannot do. Knowing the enemy is also good to improve your chances of success, but you can do without. I think the most important part is actually knowing what your PC is capable of, being in terms of feats, skills or spells. With that alone, I think your chance of survival increases exponentially. That, and knowing your role in a party. Not all of us can be the dude that attacks and kills everything. Some of us have to be the dude that keeps that dude standing. Or the one who buffs his weaponsand armor for maximum killing power. Or the guy who draws out the enemy while the other one is attacking. For me, party tactics are the single most important factor in suvival, with a close second being knowledge of your own abilities, and only then comes the knowledge of spawns.

    Also, kinda off-topic, or maybe not, but I think most of the fuss about dying is that we look at it from a mostly OOC perspective. When we die, we lose the work of months, or maybe even years for some. We have to wait for a long time in the Fugue while we aren't revived. We have to deal with inventory afterwards. But there's also potential for great stories because someone took the chance of death. My PCs died time and again because sometimes, even if the price is death, the IC thing to do was carry on. And I did so fully aware that I'd bite it. During the recent goblin wars, my barbarian dwarf charged recklessly at all times. I was fully aware he'd die because we usually got swarmed. He went down about 5 times through teh entire war, 2 of which he got DI. That was a massive moment for my character's development, and it would have never happened if I "played it safe". What I'm trying to say is that, while dying for OOC reasons is bad, and one should try to learn their character's strong points in an effort to avoid that, not dying for OOC reasons is equally as bad, because it detracts from the whole playing experience. Embrace death, after all, "To die is an awfully big adventure!"

  • G

    @8506e1ac57=SickFish:

    I consider myself a mechanically skilled player and knowledgeable about spawns. Or at least what narfells spawns used to be. And Gonnar blows me out of the water in pure skill and knowledge.

    One time the real server was down for a long time so the test server was put up int it's place. This meant that no changes could be saved so death was not a penalty and the server got OOC mostly. With no consequences and free to use up all his itmes Gonnar and 1 other PC started running to the bottom of the Bugbear Warrens, Visited the lost city, Tore it up and visited all the places you want to go but don't because it's far to likely to die. And he did it with only 2 PCs. He knows what he is talking about when it comes to how to play.

    Ah yes, the test server weeks… I don't remember anymore what was wrong with the original server <.<

    And just to clarify, I wasn't playing María on that run. I was playing my lvl 12 rogue, and consumables were used happily.

    More importantly, damn you sickfish, get back in game. I mean it... do it! :x


  • @e7810f0995=Emerwyn:

    You are wrong. And you might not realise it and still think you are right, but in this case you are outright wrong. I could post here a very long list of PCs that got to level 15+ without ever being a DM, some of which weren't especially mechanically gifted, but knew how to identify their strengths and play to them, working around their weaknesses. RP builds included.

    And let's not forget the DMs who never got a character past level 10.

    coughmecough

    Knowing enemy stats is only half the battle, if that.

  • A

    As a long time player and one who cannot spend much time in game…I can in no way obtain the kind of coin needed to keep the kind of healing potions in inventory that has been discussed in this thread. I may have had 1 true Heal potion in my whole time on Narfell (...and that was likely from event loot, not a purchase).

    Even when I was playing daily, I never was able to gather gold like that.

    However, I am usually able to keep enough in inventory to survive small events or town attacks. So far, that has been enough.

    Even the Kuo-toa caves are insanely dangerous for many player characters. Aranwe is 12th level and I will not take him through all of those caves. It is simply not worth the risk. I would likely survive...but the consumables I would need to survive would far exceed the monetary gain.


  • It's not really much of a grind, if you read what I say. You can get over 1000 gold if lucky from single kuo-toa trip. It's one trip, that gives you stack of 10 CSW. That usually lasts me for a month, since I use tiny potions to heal me unless I'm in combat.

  • Legion

    @4c8f30ae9a=Hekatoncheires:

    And I utterly disagree with you, Kayleb. Just on principle, you smell. 😛
    Its a personal pet peeve of mine…"OMG!! DM, RUNN!"

    Ugh … you're right. I do smell. 😢
    Physically and metaphorically.

    About what Wyv said about farming for potion money. I think it's a necessary evil to grind for gold for potions unless you're awesome. I've had a go at hitting bugbears for potions. I usually used more potions than I gained, and found it hard to bring them down fast enough to snuff them out before they drank them. So for normal characters a player is pretty much restricted to grindage for potion money. Sad fact and I'm not sure there'd ever be a way around that apart from being awesome or finding a good party.


  • @084f4e5017=metagod:

    please tell me where a mid lvl char with mundane gear can kill monsters that drop CSW or CCQ potions before they are killed.

    While not really answering to your question: I was playing my level 7 fighter last night, and I had to make gold. What I did was went to kuo-toas and looted everything that's worth more than 10gp to sell. I had only one other party member with me on most trips due to timezones/low server numbers, so I really didn't have to split the gold much.

    The end result? One trip would give me between 500 and 1200 golds.

    There are PCs that sell Cure Serious Potions for 100gp/bottle. One trip could therefor net you 5-12 CSW pots.


  • @ad083fb466=Hekatoncheires:

    And I utterly disagree with you, Kayleb. Just on principle, you smell. 😛 Its a personal pet peeve of mine…"OMG!! DM, RUNN!"

    I think the point that should be taken from that portion of Kayleb's post… at least in events that I would run, is that retreat is more often than not an option, and sticking around does not guarantee you to life, but can often ensure death.

    The only time I will ever hand out a TR is if I personally felt I went overboard with the difficulty AND that said situation did not given the players ample time to decide to retreat.

    For instance... if a character spends 15-20 rounds in straight melee with a spawn that's whittling down their HP with every shot, never drinks a potion, has no (or inadequate) support from other PCs, and never retreats and then dies... sorry, but you earned that one.

    My blanket advice to this thread - and how I play my (main) PC is this: assume that everything you ever see in Narfell can kill you at any time absent DM supervision. (And really with the server connection as it stands these days, you WANT a DM watching you just in case there's a lag spike or similar.) That does not mean blow every ability or consumable or spell you have immediately, but it does mean always have a contingency plan.


  • @meta: Im not sure if it was the peltarch civil war, or the eastlander war, but I distinctly remember a 1000 3e xp drop, not 1e. Rary and Shannon were both 11; I remember discussing enchantments and items with him.

    Narfell isnt as morbidly tough as it used to be.

    And I utterly disagree with you, Kayleb. Just on principle, you smell. 😛
    Its a personal pet peeve of mine…"OMG!! DM, RUNN!"


  • I consider myself a mechanically skilled player and knowledgeable about spawns. Or at least what narfells spawns used to be. And Gonnar blows me out of the water in pure skill and knowledge.

    One time the real server was down for a long time so the test server was put up int it's place. This meant that no changes could be saved so death was not a penalty and the server got OOC mostly. With no consequences and free to use up all his itmes Gonnar and 1 other PC started running to the bottom of the Bugbear Warrens, Visited the lost city, Tore it up and visited all the places you want to go but don't because it's far to likely to die. And he did it with only 2 PCs. He knows what he is talking about when it comes to how to play.


  • I agree with your points Kaykeb.

    I've got an old school narf view of the game which allows me to make the right decisions and survive. (It also greatly hinders my advancement but that's ingrained in me and I've been unable to change)

    I'm still not used to seeing a chest of loot at the end of a dungeon crawl that contained more than a pair of worn out boots.

    I'm used to dm spawning things like the dark enchantress, chief atol, a war machine, or any other number of monsters that would kill you in an instant and then crash the server 😛

    And some of my characters can handle it but they tell everyone in the party ahead of time if shit his the fan to run and ill escape when they are safe or if i know i can't handle it I'll tell everyone im running away.

    In those days when death meant losing 1.5 levels rounded DOWN with ABSOLUTELY NO TRUE REZ
    all so that you could get some worn out boots and maybe 250 to 500 1e xp
    The risk just wasnt worth it so fleeing was an easy decision

    ((The peltarch civil war plot finale got me 1000 1ed xp and no loot and that was the hardest plot event I've ever been apart of))

  • Legion

    I originally sent this as a PM to Go because I didn't want to mess his thread up with chat. Now that it's already a mess I guess it's fine for me to dump some opinion here.

    Back when I was a PL I was often the crying post for players who had just died. Sometimes the reasons for death we just the regular reasons that have already been mentioned.

    @ba24555d6a:

    One additional thing I believe contributes to a lot of unnecessary death is not knowing when to run. I'm probably guilty of scurrying off too early, but in my mind not bolting is sometimes metagaming issue. Playing in a way that makes sense IC can help avoid stupid death. if you're attacking an enemy on their own turf, sneaking about and taking on small groups of enemies makes sense. Staying around when the whole underhive knows where you are and are coming to eat you doesn't. Then the orcs start beating that war drum, it's time to leave their tunnel.

    Back when I was a PL when feedback went up the line about player deaths, the feedback that went back down was sometimes "they should have ran."

    The main reasons folks don't run seem to be:

    • "DM loot is just up ahead." Some players get into the mode of "DM spawns cool stuff to fight, DM spawns boss thing to kill, then DM spawns specialized loots!" Knowing that this is the standard mode of play, some players will push on even if it looks pretty grim. Either they are trusting in point two (below) or, as one player put it to me, its worth dying to get specialised loot. Lost XP you can get back any time, but loot is only found at the end of the DMs rainbow. This creates some lame looking, metagamish situations.
    • "DM wouldn't give us something we can't handle" I've seen one player die moments after sending me a tell to this effect. Twice in that one day actually, to the same DM. Some DMs seem to put a lot of effort into keeping players alive, while others either overestimate the PCs, or seem keen to "challenge" them to the point where it's almost a click kill. Its folly to presume a DM won't let your character die. We've all seen some pretty generous true res' but I've watched folks die presuming the DM will prop up a safety net that turned out not to be there.
    • "I can handle it". A player's character is geared up, lvled up, and could probably handle the entire underdark at once and come out on top. Great. They'll probably end up carrying the bodies of the rest of the party back to the temple though. I've heard plenty of recently resurrected characters complain about "so and so rushed in and we got TPKed" or "so and so kept going when we needed to flee and we got TPKed." There was one story of a player who was pretty tough and pushed ahead despite their party's desire to book out. Things got tough, they booked out, tough player stayed, tough player died. Then tough player blamed the party for booking out!

    Wrote that message to Gonar in the weee hours of the morning, so it was a bit shonnky. I think the idea behind it are solid though. Sometimes you just have to bail out, especially if it makes sense to do so. If you're on a regular run just looking for a bit of light trouble and you meet something terrifying would you really stick around? Would your character realistically risk their lives without any good reason to do so? Yeah OOC we may know there is a good reason (DM dropped loots!), but IC it sometimes makes more sense to book it.

    :2c:


  • I take that into consideration in which case the loot is divided and you have less. it is safer, but that is all.

    Unless the cost of Heal potions has decreased the only way I can see one being afforded in an hour is to do some serious serious farming.

    Serious farming. . like. back and forth multiple times kinda farming. . .

    usually when I try to do this I get surprised with an overwhelming encounter that I have no hope of beating and am forced to flee. . or maybe that was in the past and things are different now, but I would rather play it safe than find out, for the most part I don't farm or I only go with a group, however when I see its just a farming run I lose interest very fast because those generally are just run from spawn to spawn killing and looting and it gets boring very very fast

    just my opinion on farming though

  • G

    I think you took this the wrong way, but I'll still answer to you, seeing that I couldn't disagree more with everything you've said.

    @17cf41e4ce=metagod:

    I don't think it is really right for anyone with a character that has achieved a level so high that literally nothing on the server short of a bad roll or a DM dropped enemy is any real challenge, should be telling the rest that they should have any amount of whatever because it's easy to get. I play a variety of characters with a variety of gear and I can say that in some situations it is NOT easy to earn an income to that degree. My archer is lvl 9, has never died, and can't even pick up an extra weapon as loot let alone thousands of gold worth to buy potions, without a group she cant even solo weak goblins without taking a lot of damage.

    Before I made it to level 18, I was level 2,3 and all those levels in between. My character has died only twice in all of its existance, at 7(?) and at 13. And having a base strengh of 8 doesnt help much with the loot thing, you see. So I couldn't go and kill things to haul loot back. And my first event was at lvl 4, near PC's like Shannon who was by the time 16 or so, with spawns that had death aura and shit. Still didn't die. I was fully aware of my limits, and played accordingly. Still my level 2 spell darkness saved the day by "solving a puzzle with it". So I actualy contributed and had a lot of fun. (except my brother's character died to death aura. 😢 )

    So tell me, how is it not right for me to speak about thisl? Precisely because I made it this far, is that I can share my knowledge with others.
    You would think I have OP stuff and that's what made the difference? I'll show you my inventory any time. I still wear a mundane helmet and a 6p helmet and amulet and a mediocre set of robes.

    Also, I have other characters, ranging from lvl 5 to level 14 , and most of them have the shittiest gear you've ever seen. SHITTIEST. By shittiest I mean they have nothing past 1 single 5p items. And that'd mean having much for them already. I'll trade all of the gear from ALL of my lvl 5 to 12 characters except Charles, for any of the gear of just one of yours. ANY.

    Just a second ago I was playing a level 10 bard with 17 ac and 60 hp, and went to a very dangerous map, got out with 850 gp. That's 5 serious wounds pots. HOW? Well.. i party and I don't mind not engaging directly in battle, just help my team with other things. I know my limits and I'm fine with it.

    @17cf41e4ce=metagod:

    DM's are awesome as DM's but when it comes to PCs you have intimate and detailed knowledge of pretty much everything the server has to offer it's not your fault for knowing and I don't hold it against you for taking that knowledge into battle in order to increase your and your parties chance of survival but the fact remains that you have much much higher chances of surviving because of this knowledge so to tell any non DM pc that they should know how to survive a situation in which they have not yet experienced first hand is absolutely irresponsible and ill guided.

    I often avoid new areas like a plague because i don't know what the spawns are capable of, sure I might be high level and well geared but that doesn't change the fact that a couple well placed spells or a lucky knockdown will be the end of me.
    The only character I don't mind exploring with is Cyrian because I built him specifically to survive narfell by stacking as much AC as i can reaching upwards of 40 AC with improved expertise
    however
    just about every time I go into a new area I either die or almost die.
    last time it was the area with spectres, wraiths and alips. I knew I could tank an attack but I had no idea they would spam the spells they did and 2 players went to the negative hp with the rest of us fleeing, though they were saved luckily it was still a close call.
    Before that fighting a greater earth elemental, I didn't know they had such high AB and even with expertise active they turned him to paste in a matter of seconds.

    end of rant

    I'm speaking as a player, as I have learned nothing from being a DM, at all. I was made DM "recently", I was already level 17 with María when that happened, so I fail to see how that's relevant. If you go to a new area and everytime you do so you almost die, then you are deffinitely doing something wrong. I wasn't born high level, nor DM, and I have rarely died, with any of the PC's I've played, exploring any kind of maps, including underdark or other difficult maps. Sorry, but you're thinking there's nothing you could do better, when apparently there is.
    You're not forced to read all these "tips", but I assure you, if you did, you'd see there's nothing that comes from the knowledge obtained by being a DM. Nothing at all.


  • I should also note that while some of my suggestions scale with level, most of them are intended for levels 12+, and to deal with challenges suitable for that level. It may seem harsh for me to say, "get a +3 weapon", but Skindancers, a prominent level 12+ challenge, has DR +3/50 or so.

    And for some characters, this will simply not be doable. A gnome bard/ranger/monk focused on archery might sound fun from an rp standpoint, but will only be a useless mess in high level combat.

    Thats simply the current reality. I have no power to change that, only to point out the landscape.


  • Everyone has their views, and all are fair. That said, there is a point that's not going to slip through without me shooting it down.

    @f3c8a72269=metagod:

    DM's are awesome as DM's but when it comes to PCs you have intimate and detailed knowledge of pretty much everything the server has to offer it's not your fault for knowing and I don't hold it against you for taking that knowledge into battle in order to increase your and your parties chance of survival but the fact remains that you have much much higher chances of surviving because of this knowledge so to tell any non DM pc that they should know how to survive a situation in which they have not yet experienced first hand is absolutely irresponsible and ill guided.

    You are wrong. And you might not realise it and still think you are right, but in this case you are outright wrong. I could post here a very long list of PCs that got to level 15+ without ever being a DM, some of which weren't especially mechanically gifted, but knew how to identify their strengths and play to them, working around their weaknesses. RP builds included.

    We can discuss any points of view, and whether things are as easy as we paint them or not, but pretending in any way that your survivability depends on the OOC knowledge of the server that you gathered by being a DM or having one as friend is false and at the very least self-indulgent from you as player.

  • G

    @098a566439=KingCreeper:

    @098a566439=Gonnar:

    For comments like this is that one feels like not giving any tip at all and just let people die over and over again. If you have nothing to contribute with , then don't speak at all. Someone that is a PG should know about not making toxic posts, specialy in a DM's thread.

    Fixed to be relevant.

    Thank you , you adress something very important. metagod was talking about having low strengh. But I guess he didn't think then on partying with someone that can carry loot.