You died. Could you have helped it?
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@339a3f1936=metagod:
In my original post i said i was not accusing or pointing fingers yet i keep hearing 'my character this and my character that'. If you have managed to find ways to survive then congratulations you are an exception to my observation however i have had multiple players pm me stating their agreement.
You may not like what i have to say and you will say i am wrong but that doesn't change the fact that there are a number of people who agree but may be unwilling to share their concerns.
After being attacked in here because of my OPINION i can see why people don't want to voice their concerns openly.
Eh… you're not being attacked because of your opinion. We (or I at least) am just not agreeing with your opinion and giving arguments against it. If you don't agree with my arguments, you may quote them and speak against them. That's the whole point of a discussion. Else we'd just sit here nodding to each other while we sip some wine, pretending we agree on everything and not saying a word about it.
@339a3f1936:
"If you have managed to find ways to survive then congratulations you are an exception to my observation"
Which is the whole point of my thread, to share the ways to survival that I found, so that I'm not the exception.
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@5696de8070=metagod:
In my original post i said i was not accusing or pointing fingers yet i keep hearing 'my character this and my character that'. If you have managed to find ways to survive then congratulations you are an exception to my observation however i have had multiple players pm me stating their agreement.
You may not like what i have to say and you will say i am wrong but that doesn't change the fact that there are a number of people who agree but may be unwilling to share their concerns.
After being attacked in here because of my OPINION i can see why people don't want to voice their concerns openly.
Your original point (well your real original point was about not rushing in which is good to) that not everyone can easily farm or get consumables is a valid one. I'm lucky enough that the PC's I have either have good stuff from events or sit far enough back in encounters they don't need to chug healing potions.
I do think that if you are lacking in consumables, and therefore -can't- follow some of Heck's advice you need to be more careful. Even saying to your companions IC that you're low on healing potions so you don't want to push your luck in an area is a good idea.
I'm sorry you got jumped on in this thread. I was just vouching for Gonnar and in support of him making a thread to help out new players.
It kinda sucks that you need spellcasting support for buffs and heals, but at the same time the casters need fighters and such because events or fights tend to be long and blasty spells is a very inefficient way to fight.
If you're reading this and are confused aobut some advice in here or have different experiences feel free to PM myself or Gonnar for answers/explanations/helpful advice/bad jokes.
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In my original post i said i was not accusing or pointing fingers yet i keep hearing 'my character this and my character that'. If you have managed to find ways to survive then congratulations you are an exception to my observation however i have had multiple players pm me stating their agreement.
You may not like what i have to say and you will say i am wrong but that doesn't change the fact that there are a number of people who agree but may be unwilling to share their concerns.
After being attacked in here because of my OPINION i can see why people don't want to voice their concerns openly.
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@1df4e3064a=metagod:
This topic is about survival any my post said high lvl chars have a much higher chance. . .
How you got to be high level is irrelevant.
You fail to see that in order to be high level, you have to be mid level first, and low level before that. The fact that the character has only died twice, means that even in the low levels I was very careful of what I did. And hey, today's narfell is easier than Narfell 5 years ago. (which was already easier than Narfell 10 years ago xD).
Also, as I said, I have characters from level 5 to 18. And I've had even more but I retired them. And most of them have the worst gear you have seen in ages. Any of the new players we have around has better gear than those chars do. Just yesterday I was checking, and my level 10 druid's best item is a Dandy's monacle. (+2search +1spot), followed by some amazin sturdy bracers (+1 disc). Rest is mundane.
I still go and do stuff without dying. If that doesn't qualify as good survival, then I don't know what does.
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@7273818af1=Aota:
One thing I now keep in mind if I am playing a tank-style warrior:
Beware of the 2 Cs…criticals and casters...
These are what usually take a warrior by surprise and put them in the dirt. Always be aware of the amount and types of enemies that surround you, and nearby friendly forces. Every enemy on you has a 1 in 20 chance at landing a critical. So, every additional enemy engaged with you doubles the likelihood of landing a critical in a round. If all of those enemies are using axes (x3 crit) ...you better watch out!
As far as crits go that's not exactly true. They have a 1 in 20 chance of possibly critting, they still have to roll to confirm the crit (which means hitting your AC AGAIN). A nat 20 on a confirmation roll -doesn't- confirm a crit if it is lower than your AC. So if your AC is high enough you are immune to crits.
He is right that an unlucky crit can take many tanks unaware and out of the fight if they don't have proper healing support or misjudged the enemy. Enemies with Scyths and axes especially so.
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One thing I now keep in mind if I am playing a tank-style warrior:
Beware of the 2 Cs…criticals and casters...
These are what usually take a warrior by surprise and put them in the dirt. Always be aware of the amount and types of enemies that surround you, and nearby friendly forces. Every enemy on you has a 1 in 20 chance at landing a critical. So, every additional enemy engaged with you doubles the likelihood of landing a critical in a round. If all of those enemies are using axes (x3 crit) ...you better watch out!
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@5a24799907=ClownBaby:
Are you all implying there is more to this game than tough talking your enemy with a cheesy one liner before clicking on it and charging it? I really could have used all this advice 20 deaths ago. Better late than never!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
PS: This thread doesn't apply to dwarves. If you don't charge enemies after yelling a funny oneliner you're doing it wrong.
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Are you all implying there is more to this game than tough talking your enemy with a cheesy one liner before clicking on it and charging it? I really could have used all this advice 20 deaths ago. Better late than never!
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But metagod, for me there was also a time when I walked at level 7 against the bugbears and I didn't die to it. I wasn't born being level 16 with a full knowledge of the server.
The character in which I earned most of my knowledge on Narfell was Rith, who isn't level 18-19 simply because I stopped playing her at 16 to raise 2 other characters to her level, of which by the way, the last one has a RP token, because there are also many dark legends going on about how we high levels get there. Rith died once in her career, in times when bodies piled up in front of Friar Fred in such numbers that some players spelled words with them, and it's certainly true that clerics are by far the easiest class to survive on and leaves a lot of room for mistakes that for other classes would send your bones to the Fugue Plane. But the point is not sending a message of "Hey, you suck at playing, learn from me!", what Gonnar is doing is trying to help people who aren't that familiar with the game mechanics to improve and survive both when fighting spawns and in DM events.
It doesn't mean anyone is smarter or better than you, just that through dedication and 10+ years of experience a few players have acquired some knowledge that others can benefit from, and Gonnar's willing to share that because he dislikes seeing people dying and getting frustrated and quitting, nobody likes that happening.
I know some players that would just keep their "tricks and tips" for themselves to keep an edge over everyone else. Gonnar is trying to be outspoken and honest about sharing what he knows.
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On my cell so i won't elaborate in this post to much.
I just noticed emer and gonnars criticisms to my little rant but one thing you both mentioned was that pcx or so and so are not or were not dms when they achieved level x..I never mentioned anything about ooc information helping anyone get to any level
This topic is about survival any my post said high lvl chars have a much higher chance. . .
How you got to be high level is irrelevant.
You make it sound like I'm accusing the dms of powergaming using ooc knowledge but that's not the case.
A lvl 7 pc wandering into bugbear territory having never fought bugbears is less likely to survive vs a lvl 16 pc wandering into bugbear territory having never fought them
But a lvl 7 pc who ooc knows what the bugbears can do can prepare for it and hopefully survive
Yet a dm pc will know what hd, hp, ab, and saves they have so is not going to waste magic or feats or abilities on them knowing it will fail anyway.Again i don't hold it against you because there's nothing you can do to help it and you're not going to voluntarily get yourself killed to avoid it.
Now that circle of death has no material component I've been having a blast finding out what enemies i can kill with it and what i cannot, i see it as an opportunity for my wizard to earn her spellcraft skill and knowledge of magic but i have put myself in situations where is nearly got me killed because the spells failed and the enemies closed in
And gonnar i am looking forward to the tips you bring
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In larger groups if you have a composition of mostly front-line fighters it can be to your benefit to just stick to range. Even if you can handle mele against them if the front line gets to cluttered it is a drain on resources. Buff spells should be on everyone up front (unless there are magic eaters I suppose) and there are only so many buff spells to go around. It is also a lot harder to know who to heal, and get to them when the front lines are cluttered.
Troff is designed to be a front line tank. He's got a high AC, good hp, and DR. I still will often fall back to archery if I know the front line doesn't need me. My bow isn't the greatest ever made and I don't really have any special arrows on me but I stay ready to fill the gaps or cover the rear.
As Marty pointed out running is super important. Even if you know it's time to get out I've seen a lot of people not want to get out of sight of the fight/other party members. This is killer because it means the tanks can't afford to disengage because you are in the way of there retreat. If you're int he back (like I frequently was on Belma'r and Creg) you can often save the most lives by being a map and a half away when it's time to leg it.
I remember once when doing a fighting retreat from the Underdark Troff was holding off a magic eater. I'd given the run order and I knew with my Barbarian speed I could easily outrun the thing. The problem was this also meant I could outrun my fellow party members so I needed them basically out of the map. One rogue stayed behind and tried to help, which is admirable, but ended up nearly blowing up in our faces.
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@8d4ab72ff9:
But there's also potential for great stories because someone took the chance of death.
Utterly true.
One of my most memorable moments in Narfell was during the N'Jast war. Massive armatures were lumbering up the pass toward the ridge, and Marty was ordered to "hold them off" until the archers could escape to the other side of the ridge. .. hold them off … a lvl 7 hin armed with mundane gear. She drew her dagger and did her best. I figured that Marty sacrificing herself to save others - even if that sacrifice amounted to little more than a squishy speed hump - would be a death worth dying. She got a medal for it. You really can't beat that kind of stuff.But there is a world of difference between dying with great story behind you and dying because you weren't quick enough on that healing potion hotkey.
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@5b7534f74f=M_O_B:
And let's not forget the DMs who never got a character past level 10.
coughmecough
Knowing enemy stats is only half the battle, if that.
@5b7534f74f=Sun:
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
I think this sums up pretty much everything. A good part of not dying is knowing what you can and cannot do. Knowing the enemy is also good to improve your chances of success, but you can do without. I think the most important part is actually knowing what your PC is capable of, being in terms of feats, skills or spells. With that alone, I think your chance of survival increases exponentially. That, and knowing your role in a party. Not all of us can be the dude that attacks and kills everything. Some of us have to be the dude that keeps that dude standing. Or the one who buffs his weaponsand armor for maximum killing power. Or the guy who draws out the enemy while the other one is attacking. For me, party tactics are the single most important factor in suvival, with a close second being knowledge of your own abilities, and only then comes the knowledge of spawns.
Also, kinda off-topic, or maybe not, but I think most of the fuss about dying is that we look at it from a mostly OOC perspective. When we die, we lose the work of months, or maybe even years for some. We have to wait for a long time in the Fugue while we aren't revived. We have to deal with inventory afterwards. But there's also potential for great stories because someone took the chance of death. My PCs died time and again because sometimes, even if the price is death, the IC thing to do was carry on. And I did so fully aware that I'd bite it. During the recent goblin wars, my barbarian dwarf charged recklessly at all times. I was fully aware he'd die because we usually got swarmed. He went down about 5 times through teh entire war, 2 of which he got DI. That was a massive moment for my character's development, and it would have never happened if I "played it safe". What I'm trying to say is that, while dying for OOC reasons is bad, and one should try to learn their character's strong points in an effort to avoid that, not dying for OOC reasons is equally as bad, because it detracts from the whole playing experience. Embrace death, after all, "To die is an awfully big adventure!"
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@8506e1ac57=SickFish:
I consider myself a mechanically skilled player and knowledgeable about spawns. Or at least what narfells spawns used to be. And Gonnar blows me out of the water in pure skill and knowledge.
One time the real server was down for a long time so the test server was put up int it's place. This meant that no changes could be saved so death was not a penalty and the server got OOC mostly. With no consequences and free to use up all his itmes Gonnar and 1 other PC started running to the bottom of the Bugbear Warrens, Visited the lost city, Tore it up and visited all the places you want to go but don't because it's far to likely to die. And he did it with only 2 PCs. He knows what he is talking about when it comes to how to play.
Ah yes, the test server weeks… I don't remember anymore what was wrong with the original server <.<
And just to clarify, I wasn't playing María on that run. I was playing my lvl 12 rogue, and consumables were used happily.
More importantly, damn you sickfish, get back in game. I mean it... do it! :x
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@e7810f0995=Emerwyn:
You are wrong. And you might not realise it and still think you are right, but in this case you are outright wrong. I could post here a very long list of PCs that got to level 15+ without ever being a DM, some of which weren't especially mechanically gifted, but knew how to identify their strengths and play to them, working around their weaknesses. RP builds included.
And let's not forget the DMs who never got a character past level 10.
coughmecough
Knowing enemy stats is only half the battle, if that.
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As a long time player and one who cannot spend much time in game…I can in no way obtain the kind of coin needed to keep the kind of healing potions in inventory that has been discussed in this thread. I may have had 1 true Heal potion in my whole time on Narfell (...and that was likely from event loot, not a purchase).
Even when I was playing daily, I never was able to gather gold like that.
However, I am usually able to keep enough in inventory to survive small events or town attacks. So far, that has been enough.
Even the Kuo-toa caves are insanely dangerous for many player characters. Aranwe is 12th level and I will not take him through all of those caves. It is simply not worth the risk. I would likely survive...but the consumables I would need to survive would far exceed the monetary gain.
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It's not really much of a grind, if you read what I say. You can get over 1000 gold if lucky from single kuo-toa trip. It's one trip, that gives you stack of 10 CSW. That usually lasts me for a month, since I use tiny potions to heal me unless I'm in combat.
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@4c8f30ae9a=Hekatoncheires:
And I utterly disagree with you, Kayleb. Just on principle, you smell.
Its a personal pet peeve of mine…"OMG!! DM, RUNN!"Ugh … you're right. I do smell.
Physically and metaphorically.About what Wyv said about farming for potion money. I think it's a necessary evil to grind for gold for potions unless you're awesome. I've had a go at hitting bugbears for potions. I usually used more potions than I gained, and found it hard to bring them down fast enough to snuff them out before they drank them. So for normal characters a player is pretty much restricted to grindage for potion money. Sad fact and I'm not sure there'd ever be a way around that apart from being awesome or finding a good party.
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@084f4e5017=metagod:
please tell me where a mid lvl char with mundane gear can kill monsters that drop CSW or CCQ potions before they are killed.
While not really answering to your question: I was playing my level 7 fighter last night, and I had to make gold. What I did was went to kuo-toas and looted everything that's worth more than 10gp to sell. I had only one other party member with me on most trips due to timezones/low server numbers, so I really didn't have to split the gold much.
The end result? One trip would give me between 500 and 1200 golds.
There are PCs that sell Cure Serious Potions for 100gp/bottle. One trip could therefor net you 5-12 CSW pots.
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@ad083fb466=Hekatoncheires:
And I utterly disagree with you, Kayleb. Just on principle, you smell.
Its a personal pet peeve of mine…"OMG!! DM, RUNN!"I think the point that should be taken from that portion of Kayleb's post… at least in events that I would run, is that retreat is more often than not an option, and sticking around does not guarantee you to life, but can often ensure death.
The only time I will ever hand out a TR is if I personally felt I went overboard with the difficulty AND that said situation did not given the players ample time to decide to retreat.
For instance... if a character spends 15-20 rounds in straight melee with a spawn that's whittling down their HP with every shot, never drinks a potion, has no (or inadequate) support from other PCs, and never retreats and then dies... sorry, but you earned that one.
My blanket advice to this thread - and how I play my (main) PC is this: assume that everything you ever see in Narfell can kill you at any time absent DM supervision. (And really with the server connection as it stands these days, you WANT a DM watching you just in case there's a lag spike or similar.) That does not mean blow every ability or consumable or spell you have immediately, but it does mean always have a contingency plan.
