Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2
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Thank you all for staying on top of this. The discussion board was expected to be closed back in October with the team's final answer on all of this by years end. We are into December and I'm sure they're preparing a final draft on what we can expect next as we speak.
Thank you all again for being patient.
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At this point that sounds like an issue for the Narfell community to discuss and decide. These conversations behind closed doors have done more harm than good for a long time and it’s something we should strive to move away from.
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@satansadvisor The current staff is still discussing the obligations and rules governing the future admin team, who is what will be voted on - as announced previously. There's still some disagreement, as expected for something this new, and everyone active appears to appreciate the need to get this right.
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Hi All,
As someone who was closely following the developments these posts sparked, I'm curious where things are currently at with server direction. I haven't seen much shared aside from the occasional admin post that says what's in the works, though doesn't include any sort of time frame, nor follow ups. It has been over two weeks since the voting registration period closed, and I'm still unclear on what exactly will be voted on, or when, or how it'll be implemented. Can we, as a community, get an update on where the discussions are at, and what we can expect to see over the course of the next week or two?
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Just a couple of things on the "Unrelated to the above" part:
[Disclaimer for wouldbebard, just my opinion, doens't mean I'm right, and I hope I don't come off as passive-agressive to you or argumentative. I love you a lot <3]
In order to provide challenge to higher levels you do not require to make hordes of creatures or make aboleths/dracoliches a common thing, at all.
I believe it's the mindset here, that only player PC's are leveling up. In the same fashion there's humans/elves/etc that reach level 20, there can be NPC human/elves that reach level 20, and so they'd be in equal conditions when fighting the PC's. In fact they already exist in the DM spawner cause I created them.
As long as things are laid out in the Narfell map progressively (so that a level 10 doesn't face a level 20 spawn by accident) it shouldn't be a problem.
As a DM, also, I've never had a problem challenging high level PC's in my events without needing balors/dragons type of spawns. One just has to learn how to, I suppose.Your idea also seems to be based on the premise that the server gets a full reset, or else you would have to delevel people's PC's. And that generally doesn't sit well with players. (Yes, I do have PC's that would need deleveled and I'm not particularly happy with the idea either, eventhough that wouldn't make me stop playing, probably).
More than downing the top levels I would slow down the level up curve.
It took me 4 years of playing an awful amount of hours to get to level 17 with María. I think that's reasonably slow that you wouldn't need to worry much about cramping the top levels. Specially if you take out the TR.
Nowadays you can get a character to level 16 within a month, with 0 DM events XP, and without the help of any other player's characters. THAT is what needs to be adressed.
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As the team has responded with the directions they're considering, I feel it appropriate to add the spitballs I omitted in my previous post, in regards to the division of labour and how much the community asks of our DM team.
In general:
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The reinstatement of Player Guides would be a great thing, taking the roll of mediating off their shoulders.
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Leaving the mechanical direction of the server entirely in the hands of its developers and player representatives also seems a good division.
Afaik, our devs are our testers. Please consider letting the representatives go wild on new/changed mechanics. This will take some workload off the dev shoulders, and provide more views on a feature's balance.
In regards to future story-centric rolls:
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Head of Story: A role that does not necessarily run plots often, or at all. This role would write the seasonal story arc of the server, where other DMs write episodes or scenes, by comparison.
The Head of Story would be responsible for creating factions (or accepting those put forth by other DMs) and determining where they are in terms of size, influence and power compared to other factions, what their relations are with other factions are and ensuring this is respected.
This role remains aware of the plots of other DMs, figures out where those stand in the grand scheme of things, weaves them together into the progression of their season and uses them as a base for the next, suggesting changes to the module based on these. -
Plot Nexus: Another role that need not run plots often or at all. A role that works closely with the Head of story, that takes the time to read the plots of other DMs and points out any internal conflicts in the story, or conflicts with the plots of other DMs. Also offers suggestions to work around this.
I don't know if it's common practice for DMs to write up their plots behind the scenes, determining their villains, strengths, motivations and goals. The rewards for success or the consequences for failure. If not, I believe they should (barring one offs, little skits, etc.).
I can imagine not every DM reads them, as they are also players and don't want to spoil it for themselves. The Plot Nexus is the role that should read them and then help solve the issues.
Unrelated to the above:
I've heard more players express their desired level ranges. I would again suggest to keep it below 20, and preferably well below, but for more than just mechanical reasons.
I would keep it in the 16 range because of the implied level of strength.
A single level 16-20 character is strong enough to give any ruler pause. A party of 2 to 6 level 20s can change the face of Toril. Past level 20, they can affect the entire crystal sphere.
This is all fine in a PnP campaign, where there's only about 6 players and none of what they do becomes canon unless the DM decides to make it part of future campaigns.Imagine the scale of what 10 level 16-23s can do over time. 15 of them. 20 of them. 30 PCs of level 16-23 (or Hells, level 30). Because over a long enough time frame, that is the numbers you will be dealing with (obviously hoping our playerbase will increase).
You would have to turn exceedingly rare monsters into mobs, allowing them to regularly face things from storm giants to dracoliches to aboleths.
Alternatively, you would have to crank up regular mobs to eleven, making hordes of orcs, or armies of bandits somehow strong enough to challenge a dozen end game adventurers.
It's one of the things I agree with Kayleb/Albion on.
What are monsters that strong doing in a backwater hole like Narfell? They could be conquering any of Faerûn's cities.
A third option is making the world more powerful, having regular guards be level 12+ and diminishing PC power by comparison. That then cheapens the amount of power you've attained, though.
And that's the mobs themselves. The one upping of previous storylines and the villain decay will be a pain for DMs to deal with.I'm not saying it can't work, mind. If we were Eberron, I'd buy it. If we were Spelljammers, or we were located in Sigil. There's settings that allow for this sort of thing more easily.
Still, if we want that for Narfell, some thought should be given to how that works. At some point, it would become an enemy whose numbers are practically limitless. Outsiders, Oozes, mindless Undead. There's options, but they need careful consideration.
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Hi all
(Please excuse the length of the message and my awkward English… I am French)
My 2 CPs on the current discussion…
GENERAL THOUGHTS
Present discussion takes place in a community, ie. a diversity of people/roles/interests/objectives… nothing new.
To be more precise, based on my understanding, it is centred on current server/campaign direction/management and it involves a group of players and the server leading team (please take italics as shortcuts usefull for discussion, not more), although the whole community is concerned and participating.
Being a member of the community, I consider myself at least partly represented by the group of player even if I have not experienced what they describe, being a rather young returner to narfell (played 20y ago)My experience on such a situation (based on playing DD at least weekly since 79, being married twice, raising 3 children and having held high rank in a big institution after starting at the bottom) is that the only positive way out is negociation.
And by negociation I do not mean a diplomatic way for 2 parties to exchange niceties on their respective pov. I mean finding a solution… so let’s do it!
If we, as a community, are to find a solution, everyone (servitor included) need to stop defending his pov/position, to get out of the associated trench and be ready to move toward a common ground (probably in the middle range). If we fail to do that, the result will be very WWI-lîke… and end in an attrition war were Narfell players are the casualties.
One last point still based on experience : I have (and have seen) the concept of BATNA (Better Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) used repetidly as the easiest if not only way to find this common ground.
(For the sake of understanding, my definition of BATNA would be : « what am I ready to accept if what I really want is not possible ? »)WHAT IS A DM (@Seisan request)
Like most of us, I believe in the DM being a storyteller and an enabler, etc… although I am not sure if he should be a provider when items are concerned…
please refer to the previous posts, I mostly agree.
I want to add some (maybe) more personal thoughts-
DM is a friend : It may seem vanilla but it’s paramount from my player pov and also for the DM’s one. He is/should-not-be playing against the character but with them. We are all participating is a GAME to have fun.
As far as I am concerned, he is spending HIS time for us … I like him just for that, if not for any other reason. -
DM is a life provider : This is also very important because we are in a rolepaying game and although I acknowledge my grinding optimizer side (pharming since EQ beta so probably lot RL months fulltime, omg), I am never more pleased than seing an npc go out of his usual chat/reaction… because AI is NOT intelligent and I flater myself thinking I like playing smart. If it was not the case I would spend my (whole) gaming time in shoot-them-up.
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DM is a referee : Here is one of the most difficult hurddle of being a DM because he is here for fun (his and others), but he is also an enforcer and he has to say no when nobody likes hearing it. Being a referee, he has to be not only impartial but also to have a comprehensive grasp of the rules and more importantly the spirit behind them (nwn engine takes care of most of the litteral rules). He creates/adapts rules on the run according to situation and is required constantly to maintain many things at the same time : consistancy with the campaign setup and other DMing standards, impartiality and equal playing field for all, some sort of previsibility (makes it easier to understand no and accept it), all of that while being creative and fun.
Given the complexity of this, one (at least I) would wonder how there can be anyone wanting the position, but there are… thx a ton to them
I hope we’ll find a way … It only depends on us
May the Force blah blah. Ablamor
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Alrighty, let's see here...
I guess I should start with Seisan's inquiry...
@Seisan : "1. definitions of what is Dungeon Master, and 2. What should a Dungeon Master do?"1: My PERSONAL definition is as follows: A Dungeon Master is someone who places down the start of an experience than works with players in the experience of unraveling a story. (I say unravel because a lot of the time there are unplanned things that will happen.) A Dungeon Master is a being that comes up with story ideas whither grand or small, they begin that story and work with their players to make an enjoyable endeavor for all and even work with players to progress personal character arcs that can bring about more stories to be told.
What I PERSONALY think a "Dungeon Master should do" is as follows: Actively think of ideas for stories grand or small and strive for the grand for it involves many more players, that can also bring about actively reaching out for other DM's to work under them for those grand schemes to actively net every level range, (Brings about Idea concepts for levels 5-20 to all be apart of the same event)
"A War; Everyone has a part to play, 5-10 go after the bigger underlings to secure that they don't become an issue/threat in the future and prevent these threats from coming back to bite everyone's ass.
10-15 much the same as the 5-10 range or even more along the lines of commanding the forces/working with the forces in the grander scheme of the war field, give a rise where skill points can raise morale in a positive or negative effect ( @KingCreeper Persuade or that good ol' 'Mac charm of Intimidate, etc...) that could have reasonable consequences or bonuses later.
15-20; Head tacticians, legion commanders, special forces that infiltrate the deepest parts of enemies lines and take the bulk of the load (Make it heavy, a burden, for the betterment of those that can't yet carry that load so they have futures), go for the head or even the outside sources that protect that head."So many options and some of these options can be moved about and fitted for the other level ranges. We could easily have numbers for such an event, and HELLLL if we don't have the numbers it could be the last BIG BANG that could lead to the server reset, while easily enough positions for 4-5 DM's to work in cohesion each with their own slots 5-10 dm, 10-15 dm, 15-20 dm, the dm that micro manages the war aspects player wise and enemy wise, the dm that dispenses the the story points to the other DMs at the head.
Sorry, I realize I got hella side-tracked drooling over the possibilities. x-x
But most importantly I think that a Dungeon Master should work towards learning their players characters as much as possibly similar to the players to try and be aware in their planning as much as possible, after all~ in these oh so very lovely forums we have a beautiful access to such things made by our players in "Character Descriptions" and Even looking for some of their personal journals, while also being a possible discord message away.
But yea these are my thoughts, and there is so much that can be worked off/improved/and heck I don't have all the answers so there's plenty more I haven't said that could be involved as well.
But I think a very big importance is that a Dungeon Master should be actively working on a plot, even if we moved to terms, I'd think a DM should remain if they are actively working and moving forward with a story and need more time to bring it to a close. Players should also actively try and work with their DMs as much as possible in the fashion of being supportive OOCly but still always remain in-character while playing. (Fun side thought for that war I was drooling for, "The war against the newly formed devinity of 'reset'" ("Reset" is a place holder because so many other words that I can't think of could be better.))NOW I can work on to other messages and thoughts; I agree with @Scout-Hen :
@scout-hen said in Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2
in this post for a large and vast majority, though I do think 30s would be pushing what I feel Narfell should be... I do think it was... Gonnar..? That mentioned the possibility of level 23? I think that COULD be a possibility. But even I am Very iffy with it, though I agree it would Have to be through events to get past 20. (Kinda like a cool after 20 "How many events and work was put in to progress other things" fashion.)I personally wouldn't want the reset, and I'd not want even more to go back below level 20, I have good memories of RP with Characters at that level that those players are gone. But outside of that I have near no fond memories, nor feelings of any achievement in or out of character when I was that low in the olden days.
I also personally don't want the server to have to split, but if that were to be the heavy exchange it would take to make a large amount of people happy, then I Will support their decision because everyone deserves to be satisfied with a game that we all grew with, some more than others.I do believe the voting and pulls should be public,
I do think DMs should have term limits so that inactivity doesn't just give a special and privileged cushion to sit on when they shouldn't have it for not doing any DMing,
I do think Transparency is important,
I do think Player guides should come back BUT I do have a slightly different community structure in mind... I think there should be DMs and a Head DM (All active in some way, and DMing ALL voted upon for placements on that side of the table) Player Guides as well as Player Lead THEN the true top being the CLs (Community Leads) that everyone votes in that directs all the aforementioned rolls and 2 CLs would be able to split the work and talk about the following and work in tandem to also help if anything IRL were to come to pass and hinder.
With Public Voting I easily believe that all this would work like a perfect clockwork after an adjustment period...(Gives formal bow) Now I greatly apologize to everyone for my extremely long winded post with plent' of side-tracked drooling, as well as thoughts... Just like I greatly appreciate everyone that was considerate enough to listen to my personal thoughts on these matters, while I do have some more, I won't bog anyone else down with more unless requested.
(Gives another bow) Again, I, Shade, Thank you all for your very important time as well as consideration, and look forward to when we all move forward towards whichever direction the fates take us...~Shade
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- For me, the role of DM is that of a narrator. They own nothing, and are attached to nothing. There is no ego. They are the reaction to the characters actions. They may be there to build the stage, and the history… but not the future.
- DMs are creators of situations. They build a hook, and build a library of challenges and scenes and archetype NPCs that they can improv with. There are no foregone conclusions or expectations. Their NPCs may have goals, but the DM does not.
- They are also there to create consistency. So that the player understands their situation, but also can intuit reality and their options within it.
- It’s part of the DM role to get to know how each player has fun. And barring knowing that, ensuring that different types of scenes/scenarios are presented to ensure that everyone has the chance to be the hero.
- DMs are also world accountants. Repercussion trackers. Tracking how the world changes based on character action and making the characters be accountable to those. This is an area in which a multi-DM and a revolving player base world has a lot of issues.
- The DM is also the host of the party. Players are their guests. Each has different roles and responsibilities.
RPGs are communal gatherings of friends. Not a classroom with a teacher and students. Not a set with actors and a director. Not a storyteller with an audience. Not staff and customer. But a group collaboration where one person acts as a guide. Different but equal. That’s what a DM is to me.
What do I love about DMing? Seeing how the story and characters develop. When I only have a rough idea of the direction to guide them, then the story is new to everyone, including me. And I love seeing others have fun and being creative based on what I set up for them. More work, but for me, more fun.
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Sorry, I missed the request for input earlier.
In the NWN genre, (D/G)M to me means:
- Someone I can ask assistance of when things go sidewise
- Someone that can become the World when things need more than game engine routines
- Someone that implements storylines (their own or others)
(optional). A neutral third party that can arbitrate between players when needed
I am 56 y/o next month, I started playing AD&D when I was 13. I don't mean to claim that I am a subject matter expert, but I do have a large base of experience on both sides of the PnP table.
To me, the Game Operations Director is someone that serves their players by being every part of the world that the players are not. In NWN, a lot of those functions are automated. This should leave more time for actively interacting with the PCs. (Note that I am not in a position to allude to what that interaction should be as I am not currently an active player.)
I think what needs to happen has already been expressed:
- Collectively decide what vision the server will follow (Central hub, level based zones, etc)
- Establish how that vision will be enacted (Magic rules, Item rules, etc)
- Create a playbook for DMs to follow
- Create a list of things the players need to provide inputs/votes on
I do not believe that the DM team needs any kind of wipe. The sorts of people that volunteer for these things tend to follow the plan if there is one. If there is not one, they tend to make their own. That is what I see being described here.
On a separate note, to those people that say DMs serve the server, I say, a Story noone reads is called a failure. There is a wide gap between being a treasure chest and being a DM, and that gap is defined in a player being satisfied with the Story you tell.
That satisfaction does not require tangible rewards, but it does require that they feel that you didn't waste their time. Time is the only real currency in online gaming and players that feel they are not getting Return on Investment of their time will find somewhere else to spend it.
Back when the Druidic Circle was still active, there were a lot of goings on where I didn't get great tangible advances, but I was content to be a player in Narfell because I was part of those goings on, and the story I was telling was supported. The highest that character got was level 7, but I still, over a decade later, remember it fondly.
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One thing I'd like to ask a lot of the Narfell 2 folks is: what parts of your vision are you willing to compromise on?
I'm not asking this as a challenge, but because I think that we should be open to changes if they're needed. It sounds to me like you want at least a partial reset of things and a complete change of DM team, which...honestly, I have a hard time getting behind. The stated vision as it stands seems unsustainable if it's implemented in full. I'm saying this not because of any sort of role here at the server I want to hold on to (I've stepped down as a DM after all), but because if there's one thing I've learned from 15ish years as an on-again off-again staff member here, it's that there are some serious flaws in what you're arguing for.
That's not to say wanting change isn't valid. That's not to say keep things as they are. That's not to say I think anyone has ulterior motives here.
I'd have a hard time getting behind the things you guys want that are stated here, but I am curious to hear where each side can find room to negotiate on things. Just taking a stand and saying "We demand this and only this" is...not a move that's going to get you what you want, most of the time. It's not going to get anyone what they want here on either side of this debate, I can guarantee you that.
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These posts were due to be closed on Friday (October 6th).
As there are points that are still being addressed (thank you all again for being involved) I feel its appropriate to let it roll on. There's already some discussion going on behind the curtain I've no doubt, and @Seisan has been asking some specific questions.
I will keep an eye on both topics and if things wind down sufficiently to a point where it looks like everyone has said their piece, asked their asks, or vented what needs venting, I'll go ahead and announce the close.
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On the role of a DM, I chime in with many others have said, such as KingCreeper, SatansAdvisor, its_a_fire and Gonnar. In particular, I'd like to stress Gonnar's point c), in that the DM does not work for the players. A DM treated like a Pez dispenser to make players dreams come true won't get the only real reward for their job, which is the storyteller's right to explore themes and set scenarios they find interesting. That said, I too enjoy the little one-off adventures created on the fly, and I have admittedly fished around for DMs when the guilds my PCs were part of were still active, suggesting this or that idea that we as a group wished to accomplish. Sometimes with success, other times given a no - and that's just as it should be, we're all equal in that, as Gonnar wrote. We're all here to have fun, and the magic can't happen without mutual and willing participation.
The ideal to my mind would be to have a variety of DMs, active not only in different time zones, but each with their different styles and preferences, rather than expect one or two to fulfil everyone's idea of fun. We are all different, and that should be okay on the sort of welcoming server I'd like to play on.
SatansAdvisor's poignant point on the drains of DM-hood is also something important to highlight. Those wondering about DM burnout and inactivity would be wise to look twice at that. Player Guides / Leads used to take some of that pressure off, but having known a few people who took that role on as players, I know it ate away at their fun too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the reason these roles no longer exist is that no players applied for them (and the low player count in general). If I'm mistaken, bringing them back would be something I'd favour.
I have more to say on what I expect from players, but will hold off on that in case it would derail the current discussion. The main point is already made though, it being a relationship where one cannot exist without the other. We should treat one another right, and that goes for players every bit as much as DMs.
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I would give you an answer, but it would very closely mimic @its_a_fire 's. Eerily so.
If I would add one thing, it is to the point of checking in with the players.If a DM knows a player was present for an event, and knows their character could take actions, but the player isn't bringing it up, a DM could reach out to the player to see if there's anything they want to do. I have never been shy about messaging DMs when I had questions or ideas, but that isn't true for all of us.
It might also alleviate the feeling of being ignored if there is an outreach like that. I can imagine players having had ideas in the past, but simply not bringing them up because they felt it would fall on deaf ears.There are things we expect our DMs to do that I believe could be divided better. One step at a time, though.
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I would like to point out that the post by @Preacher is not representative of the group I represent and on behalf of our group I apologize to the individuals called out in the post. We wish to be inclusive and we don't agree with the approach of calling out individuals. We are hoping for productive discussions with Dora and the team to see if there is a way forward on the existing server or not.
@Preacher Hoping you remove this post.
@KingCreeper Apologies for posting this after your previous request to me.
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I'd like to point out, to both sides as it seems we do have two, that no one has ever gotten anything by being rude.
Any argument can be made moot with the wrong tone.
Why is the sky blue?
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Gases and particles in Earth's atmosphere scatter sunlight in all directions. Blue light is scattered more than other colors because it travels as shorter, smaller waves. This is why we see a blue sky most of the time. (Thanks google)
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The sky isn't blue you idiot. You must be real stupid to not know its how light and the atmosphere scatter sunlight. Maybe you should get smarter you dolt.
One of these answers is an answer, the other is being rude for the sake of making a fight. Pick the right tone or do not contribute because no matter how right or wrong you or someone else may be... you become wrong by being the instigator.
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I've removed my response. You're probably right, that whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way.
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I feel this is a rather serious topic, and I'd personally like a modicum of decorum observed. Rudeness and incivility cheapens any argument, and only serves to drive people away from the very table it behooves each of us to sit at.
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This post is deleted!
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@preacher I think your post is very out of place here, not by its content but by its forms.
You should know better.
