Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2
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One thing I'd like to ask a lot of the Narfell 2 folks is: what parts of your vision are you willing to compromise on?
I'm not asking this as a challenge, but because I think that we should be open to changes if they're needed. It sounds to me like you want at least a partial reset of things and a complete change of DM team, which...honestly, I have a hard time getting behind. The stated vision as it stands seems unsustainable if it's implemented in full. I'm saying this not because of any sort of role here at the server I want to hold on to (I've stepped down as a DM after all), but because if there's one thing I've learned from 15ish years as an on-again off-again staff member here, it's that there are some serious flaws in what you're arguing for.
That's not to say wanting change isn't valid. That's not to say keep things as they are. That's not to say I think anyone has ulterior motives here.
I'd have a hard time getting behind the things you guys want that are stated here, but I am curious to hear where each side can find room to negotiate on things. Just taking a stand and saying "We demand this and only this" is...not a move that's going to get you what you want, most of the time. It's not going to get anyone what they want here on either side of this debate, I can guarantee you that.
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These posts were due to be closed on Friday (October 6th).
As there are points that are still being addressed (thank you all again for being involved) I feel its appropriate to let it roll on. There's already some discussion going on behind the curtain I've no doubt, and @Seisan has been asking some specific questions.
I will keep an eye on both topics and if things wind down sufficiently to a point where it looks like everyone has said their piece, asked their asks, or vented what needs venting, I'll go ahead and announce the close.
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On the role of a DM, I chime in with many others have said, such as KingCreeper, SatansAdvisor, its_a_fire and Gonnar. In particular, I'd like to stress Gonnar's point c), in that the DM does not work for the players. A DM treated like a Pez dispenser to make players dreams come true won't get the only real reward for their job, which is the storyteller's right to explore themes and set scenarios they find interesting. That said, I too enjoy the little one-off adventures created on the fly, and I have admittedly fished around for DMs when the guilds my PCs were part of were still active, suggesting this or that idea that we as a group wished to accomplish. Sometimes with success, other times given a no - and that's just as it should be, we're all equal in that, as Gonnar wrote. We're all here to have fun, and the magic can't happen without mutual and willing participation.
The ideal to my mind would be to have a variety of DMs, active not only in different time zones, but each with their different styles and preferences, rather than expect one or two to fulfil everyone's idea of fun. We are all different, and that should be okay on the sort of welcoming server I'd like to play on.
SatansAdvisor's poignant point on the drains of DM-hood is also something important to highlight. Those wondering about DM burnout and inactivity would be wise to look twice at that. Player Guides / Leads used to take some of that pressure off, but having known a few people who took that role on as players, I know it ate away at their fun too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the reason these roles no longer exist is that no players applied for them (and the low player count in general). If I'm mistaken, bringing them back would be something I'd favour.
I have more to say on what I expect from players, but will hold off on that in case it would derail the current discussion. The main point is already made though, it being a relationship where one cannot exist without the other. We should treat one another right, and that goes for players every bit as much as DMs.
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I would give you an answer, but it would very closely mimic @its_a_fire 's. Eerily so.
If I would add one thing, it is to the point of checking in with the players.If a DM knows a player was present for an event, and knows their character could take actions, but the player isn't bringing it up, a DM could reach out to the player to see if there's anything they want to do. I have never been shy about messaging DMs when I had questions or ideas, but that isn't true for all of us.
It might also alleviate the feeling of being ignored if there is an outreach like that. I can imagine players having had ideas in the past, but simply not bringing them up because they felt it would fall on deaf ears.There are things we expect our DMs to do that I believe could be divided better. One step at a time, though.
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I would like to point out that the post by @Preacher is not representative of the group I represent and on behalf of our group I apologize to the individuals called out in the post. We wish to be inclusive and we don't agree with the approach of calling out individuals. We are hoping for productive discussions with Dora and the team to see if there is a way forward on the existing server or not.
@Preacher Hoping you remove this post.
@KingCreeper Apologies for posting this after your previous request to me.
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I'd like to point out, to both sides as it seems we do have two, that no one has ever gotten anything by being rude.
Any argument can be made moot with the wrong tone.
Why is the sky blue?
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Gases and particles in Earth's atmosphere scatter sunlight in all directions. Blue light is scattered more than other colors because it travels as shorter, smaller waves. This is why we see a blue sky most of the time. (Thanks google)
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The sky isn't blue you idiot. You must be real stupid to not know its how light and the atmosphere scatter sunlight. Maybe you should get smarter you dolt.
One of these answers is an answer, the other is being rude for the sake of making a fight. Pick the right tone or do not contribute because no matter how right or wrong you or someone else may be... you become wrong by being the instigator.
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I've removed my response. You're probably right, that whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way.
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I feel this is a rather serious topic, and I'd personally like a modicum of decorum observed. Rudeness and incivility cheapens any argument, and only serves to drive people away from the very table it behooves each of us to sit at.
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This post is deleted!
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@preacher I think your post is very out of place here, not by its content but by its forms.
You should know better.
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I apologise in advance, both for the passionate writing and the grammar errors that will flood my post. But I can't speak of Narfell without passion, for it's been a part of my life since I was 16, almost 20 years ago. I've been through everything you can be through in Narfell. A noob, a mechanics pro, a hated-by-DMs player, a loved-by-DMs player, an RPer, an enabler for stories, a random player, a banned player, a PG, a DM, an ex-DM, helped a bit with spawns/maps dev side and I've even be an ex-player when I've taken my year long absence. I've literally seen and lived it all. So trust me when I say that I've seen Narfell from all the possible angles.
To answer @Seisan : For me a DM is someone that:
a) is willing to enhance the experience for the players -and themselves- (since both parts need to be having fun on this). Be it with deep long developping stories, with "atmosphere" interventions (possessing NPC's and have them talk, changing the weather, narrating things that are going on, etc..), one off events, etc.
b) is capable of being fair with players, regardless of you liking some more than others.
c) is active. If you know you'll be away or inactive for a long period you can step down, and you can always reapply in the future when needed.For me a DM is NOT someone that:
a) comes and goes -> Having rotating DMs is very hurtful for cohesion, coherence and long lasting plots. A DM should be a long term commitment. (Ofc RL comes first tho)
b) has to dedicate all or most of their time to DMing. This is a free activity and a game, and we're all here to have fun. So as long as they do not only PC, I have no objection in a DM playing their PC's. Furthermore, I think playing your PCs while you are DM helps you a great deal to grasp difficulties and situations PC's have to deal with in the server.
c) works for the players. A DM devotes himself to the server, not the players. This might be a very unpopular opinion, but as long as it's a game and something people do on their free time and for free, it's clear to me. A DM should be free to say "No" when they don't feel like doing a particular thing, or even when they do not feel like interacting with a particular player, in the same way that a player might not want to interact (as has happened many times) with a particular DM.
We're all equal here into what rights refer. No one owes anybody nothing, and the only thing that should be expected and requested is to have dedication for the server.
There should be enough DM's that this freedom to say NO doesn't become an issue by leaving some player(s) unattended.
d) has to necessarily vote or voice their opinion on policies, balance, etc. I think there should be a different role for those, which doesn't mean a person can't have more than 1 role. Just that being a DM doens't give you instant knowledge on things. I would rather have a doctor patch my leg wound instead of letting a tailor do it, even if the later is used to sewing things, too.Overall, that's my take on DMs.
Now, about the whole Narfell direction thing and all that. I honestly cannot support having an alternate server that is the exact same thing we've worked in for years and years so that some people can have their own vision of the server happen. We're all here together in this, and one would hope that we all work together on this to get it going in a direction that we all can enjoy. Think of it as a relationship, you don't like everything your wife/man does, and you don't like all the things your wife/man does either, yet you (sometimes) share those activities with them, same as they would do with you. Sometimes you have to concede, others you are conceded something, too. And the same applies here to Narfell. I don't like some things, but I enjoy others, and I know the other guy over there likes what I don't and doesn't like what I like... the important thing is to reach a middleground, a point in which everyone that has real interest in the server can concede something and still be able to enjoy the game.
If that is not the case for someone, I think their solution is not to make a coppy of Narfell, but to look out for a new server they might like more.We have things to change, for granted, but those changes should come from unity, and not from splitting.
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Hey all. Long time no see. Thorin's and Fabian's player here. Thorin who grinded endlessly, gathering coal one by one with a set goal of 5000 pieces just to build a puny wall for the dwarven Hold... Still though it was nothing compared to Verika's tower... I feel RedMenace's struggle, the player must gathered 1 milion coal units over RL decades to build the tower... Anyway...
I am supporting the creation of a new, obviously better Narfell since its drive is transparency and equal treatment towards players. So I hear about a debate on what is wrong with Narfell. And it triggered some cells in my brain, as if burning them. People got startled by Jazz's announcement of the new Era, as if they were offended. Why? Let's get it straight. There are problem-concepts that are being called out, decades now. Let's see some points, I will quote others' words, I don't care who is who and I don't care if they will be offended or not. I don't give af. After all, the opinion of players who are the root and fuel for favoritism has zero credibility. It's biased. Their need is to defend the current server status to keep enjoying the boons from the CJ DMs (who in majority are also these players). I only care about seeing the new Narfell as a healthy concept:
Favoritism: I won't even describe what is considered favoritism. Certain DMs and players, at least those who i can remember, like Karni, Flom, RedMenace, Cao, Unholy, Gonnar, Wyvernwyn and Seisan are the root of Narfell's current state. You guys want a virtual pnp for you and you alone. And with some sidekicks that will come and go every now and then to "admire" you. It's prefectly fine. Keep this server version and enjoy the rp between you. But don't try to stop the 30+ people from moving on. They don't want to be part of your inner circle of 5-6 people. Stop starving for attention. You have 3-4 more people to admire you in game.
Quote time!
1."It's obvious to me that we do not, in fact, agree on what the problem is. I certainly don't agree with "A New Era for Narfell"s analysis, in which the issue of powercreep in items and levels, the expanded world and current trend towards powergaming and soloing is wholly lacking. Is the implication that if only this one small group who play together on weekends went away, everything would be peachy dory and the masses of old and new players would come welling in?"
Of course you don't agree. You're the most favored player in Narfell ever, why ruin it for yourself. If favoritism had an single-word to be described would be Karnivorr (and a few others as similar descriptions). And of course if this small group went away would bring players back (toxicity would disappear). The 30+ people who support the new server means exactly this.
2."It is after all a players right to choose to join in or not"
Please let's post it again together with what you excluded in the end of your original thoughts: "It is after all a players right to choose to join in or not in the events that are designed with my character as the center of attraction by my personal DM"
There you have it. Better now.
3."I guess its difficult for me to get my head around. If Narfell 2 is scoping out all the desires, wants, and motivations from Narfell 1, and so focused on the implementation of the exact same stuff... what are you even doing? Why don't you encourage the 30+ players to come and share in this dialog and fix this?"
It can't be fixed. Countless players tried to help, give feedback, called out issues only to fall on deaf ears. The problem is not the mod, is it's staff. These people who still pretend to not aknowledge the favoritism, the toxicity. These people are in control of the server. So it's natural that there is no saving for the current Narfell. I could write a whole book with what is wrong with this server. Also, Faerun lore. The team has zero knowledge of Faerun lore... Fish Fort. This troll from the staff's side, and you still don't want to retcon. So for all who read this post, just to know what kind of DM Unholy is and what he did to drive away a team of 5 players with dwarven characters. He built the Fish Fort right next to the dwarven Fort in one night. So the staff considered it normal that the dwarven NPCs would sit comfortably on their ballistas and watch their sworn enemies building their small Fort and doing nothing. That is gentlemen Faerun lore for you... And you KingCreeper asking what is wrong with current Narfell. What drives players away? Really now? Asking such questions insult all the decent players that have passed from Narfell and were driven away from the CJ. Do me a favor and don't ask questions for dummies. And please stop trying to convince people that the two servers coexisting will benefit all. It would only benefit the old narfell and infect the new one.
- "Out of curiosity, since I've seen it suggested a few times in these discussions, how would player voting DMs work? Does a certain amount of no votes sink an app? Or is it majority focused, i.e, 10 yes votes beat 9 no votes? Would there be a time limit on the period you can vote, or is it a wait until every active player votes? I suppose these are some of the questions I have on the concept."
Don't worry. Geniuses like you won't be voted.
Best of wishes.
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Bear in mind that I’ve never DMed in a persistent world, which I recognize as being pretty distinct from the normal course of things, where a DM’s first responsibility is typically hand-selecting a small group of people to invite into their home because they want to eat snacks and tell stories together. I think it’s important to state this at the top not only as a recognition of my inexperience at DMing for such a dramatically atypical game like Narfell, but also because I have frequently seen players lose sight of DMs as people who are also here to have fun, who have limited time, who have personal preferences on genre and playstyles, and who have volunteered their time to do something above and beyond what any of us more typical DMs would do for dear friends at our own RL table. Look at what SatansAdvisor wrote about his Narfell DM experience again, and tell me with a straight face that a PnP group like that wouldn’t dissolve within two sessions. I’m embarrassed to say that I’ve been on the wrong side of this before, and the lesson can’t be stated too often or too bluntly.
I do have plenty of experience with the tabletop version of DMing though, and have some pretty strong opinions on that which I believe still applies.
IMHO a DM’s role is…
- To create in-game problems (leaving the solutions to the PCs). Typically, this means they need to create the primary antagonists or forces that are moving contrary to PCs interests, to be creative and intriguing in these schemes and motivations, and to have a clear plan of what happens if the PCs fail or do nothing.
- To break that plot into chapters/sessions where PCs have opportunities to shift the story and/or fail in interesting ways. And whereby PCs develop the skills, insights, and tactics they need to end the plot in a satisfying way.
- To use common elements of storytelling to suggest possible consequences and ticking timers - and if need be, to go above the table and state these things plainly to the players.
- To create emotional stakes and give life to the world external to PCs.
- To react to PC choices in ways that consistently push the story forward up to and including changing the course of events significantly.
- To test PC ideals and bonds.
- To create opportunities for PC initiative.
- To occasionally check in with players about their levels satisfaction, to communicate expectations, to ensure that players work together in a spirit of mutual fun even (or especially) when characters have disagreements, and in the spirit of a happy, energized table, to occasionally step above the table to clarify the state of the game.
- To be cognizant of the rules, to remain alert for cheating, metagaming, and other drags on the table’s fun, and to modify the rules as necessary to ensure the table's fun.
- To be ready to intervene with players who are disrespectful to others, who are disruptive to mood/tone, who are disengaged or out of character, or who continuously steal the spotlight, and to take charge of disinviting those players when it affects everyone’s enjoyment.
To be unsubtle for a moment, I want to be clear about what I’ve intentionally left out, like experience/levels, gold, and items. These are storytelling tools, no more no less, and inconsequential without the story of how they were gained or a situation with character-defining stakes in which to use or lose them. You cannot win at D&D, and the game is enjoyable whether you are level one or fourteen, whether you are playing nobility or a street rat.
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@seisan I think a few of the posts below cover what is a DM and what should they do. Just to add to those:
I think if you're going to be a DM you should dedicate a significant amount of your online Narfell time to DMing (e.g. events/stories/etc.). This isn't to say you can't play a PC, but, if you're playing a PC a LOT more than you're DMing perhaps it's time to give someone else a chance.
When you DM you should DM for the entire player base. If you are DMing for the same small group, over and over (with a few secondary/background PC exceptions here and there) then you're not particularly being fair. e.g. A few months ago, Seth and Call were in the Underdark together and DM Digit spent 5 minutes and created a short little event with a big boss at the end. We had tremendous fun, a good challenge and some fun RP. Unfortunately it was the only IG DM interaction I've had in 1 year.
When you're a DM you should follow the code of conduct and the rules, be accountable. e.g. Yesterday I saw a screenshot for a 56 point item and a +3 weapon which was awarded prior to +3 weapons being allowed on the server (by at least 9 months). And before someone says it was a one time plot item or some other excuse, there are dozens more examples of these, and yes I can provide screenshots. If a DM breaks the rules they should be held accountable, first time warning, second time removal as a DM.
When you're a DM you should communicate and be transparent. I think a lot of people's gripes are they get no response to their requests, IC stuff or OOC stuff. I've heard a lot of people saying that their requests have been ignored for weeks/months/years. Engage with everyone as a DM, give feedback. e.g. If you deny a DM application, say why, and say what the person can do to get a "yes" vote later.
Again, I'm sure one can argue with my examples above but the problem is that many many people are seeing these issues, not just 1 or 2 people.
So, in summary, what should a DM do? Tell stories, host events, post in the forums, be inclusive (engage with the whole playerbase), be fair, be transparent, be communicative, obey the rules, help grow/groom new potential DMs, hold non obeying DMs to account, listen to the community, and have fun.
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I guess its difficult for me to get my head around. If Narfell 2 is scoping out all the desires, wants, and motivations from Narfell 1, and so focused on the implementation of the exact same stuff... what are you even doing? Why don't you encourage the 30+ players to come and share in this dialog and fix this?
I'd ask you to stop posting about Narf-two in this thread. Please create your own post. I don't know who gets the kids in the divorce, but if there's no desire to work together maybe there needs to be a discussion about who stays on Narfell.us forums and who needs to go create their own space.
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@unholycalls
The short answer is we don't have that fully defined yet. We want the community to weigh in on this, However, we're going to put out to the community the concept of "majority votes" which pass with 50% +1 and "super majority votes" which only pass with something like 70% of the votes. In addition, we have drafted some rules (subject to community approval) on who gets to vote. We're creating the concept of an "active player" which is a player who has played X hours in the last Y months (X and Y to be voted on). These will form the voting community. We're hoping to get some devs to help the elected "Community Leader" (and admin function for running votes, etc.) by creating some tools for voter validation. Finally, the votes will last a period of time (periods 1 week or 1 month) again depending upon what the community wants.As you can see there are a lot of decisions to make at the first "Town Hall", another decision is should the DM term be 6 months or 12? (DMs can be voted back in when there term expires of course) For initial voting we'd like to let anyone who plans to play in the Community vote as a lot of people have left Narfell but would like to come back given certain changes and their input is needed to shape the community.
I have a lot more documented (but again concepts as the community needs to weigh in) as we've been working on this for a while now.
By the way, we don't want to prevent anyone who's enjoying Narfell "as is" from doing so in the future. We're just a community that have lobbied for changes for years and not been able to effect change so now we'd like to have the opportunity to take a copy of the server and run it ourselves. We believe the server is community property as many of us have shaped it throughout the years.
I'm sure each individual "priority" we've listed can be nitpicked here and there (e.g. DM applications or DM activity, etc.), but I think you need to take our vision and priorities into account as a whole and recognize that this "movement" wasn't done in haste, we feel this is our only course of action now (unless the DMs wish to change Narfell the way we've listed, but I don't think they do).
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What is a DM? An enabler.
What should they do? Enhance the world that the Dev's have created. A good one will suck players in, sometimes without them knowing it.
To be honest the most memorable "event" in my recollection was an ogre with a wasp nest. It was at the end of two players exploring and took about 5 minutes of Dm time and led to 20 minutes of player RP.
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To answer Seisan on my thought of what a DM should be.
1- A DM is a storyteller, not a politician. Their focus should be on players, as many as possible.
2- I hold a strong feeling that DMs should not be worried about "server policy" they should be focused on engaging players in a meaningful way. This is not only telling their stories, but engaging with characters backgrounds and helping them fulfill their stories as well.
3- They should be active. A DM who is not active and serving the community in a broad sense, has no business being a DM.
4- A DM should not only be accountable to the "Staff code of conduct", but support and understand the intent behind such a thing. Abuse of power harms a community as a whole. Punishment for such should be fair for infractions, but real in scope.
5- An exceptionally strong sense of "Fair play" as well as the ability to understand intent of "Rule of fun" and be capable of balancing it with fairness.
6- An understanding that stories and actions outside set server rules can have a dramatic effect on the community they play in. Both positively and negatively, they should be mindful of their impact beyond the scope of their immediate story, psychic, no, but nothing travels in a small community faster then the speed of light then gossip, both good and bad. Make your gossip good.
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I've provided my answers to your questions below. I admit, my views on DMship did change during my tenure, as I went into the DM team having had little to no DM experience and learned a great deal during my time on the other side of the curtain.
- definitions of what is Dungeon Master
In my eyes, a Dungeon Master is a storyteller. That's their purpose, that's the role. To me, a Dungeon Master is not, by definition, a mediator, a politician, an administrator, or anything else. It's nice to have DMs with those qualities at times, but I do not think any of them is a qualifying or disqualifying attribute by itself. Storyteller first, though they need to possess basic social skills that foster inclusive environments and allow for pleasant interactions between diverse groups of players. In Narfell, DMs, with their IG powers, are needed to serve certain administrative functions, such as importing items or fixing minor bugs/issues players find.
- What should a Dungeon Master do.
I believe that DMs exist to facilitate the telling of a story. This doesn't mean they tell a story and let players plug in at times, but rather they provide players with tools the players can then use to tell their own stories. These tools are things the players cannot access by themselves, such as but not limited to effects, map changes, possessed NPCs, etc. DMs can't go into a story with one specific outcome in mind; instead, they need to set up scenarios that players are encouraged to participate in and encourage players to make decisions that shape the rest of this now-shared story. DMs must be versatile to continue to facilitate this seemingly seamless story on the fly as unexpected actions occur. The DMs job in this role of facilitation is to really provide players with options and opportunities for growth, RP, and decision making. And to make sure that these opportunities (for that's really what they are, and they're coveted) are shared. Some players are more timid or standoffish than others, just as some PCs are, and it's an integral part of the DM job to ensure each player is feeling recognized, appreciated, and contributing to the story in the way they wish to be. At the end of the day, the DM exists to serve the players and foster their combined shaping of the shared world, and they do this by creating unique, open-ended experiences.
EDIT: It wasn't asked, but I'm adding it anyways. My worst Narfell experiences as a PC were in the form of DM inattention. Seeing other players get 'attention' and opportunities from DMs that I did not see myself getting. This often came in the form of events I participated in as a seemingly one-off character, rather than an integral part of the party.
My most difficult experiences as a DM was definitely the need to mediate between grieved parties, remain impartial, and then turn around and try to provide a fun, inclusive environment for all those same players while remaining cognizant of their OOC grievances. It sounds silly, but juggling OOC toxicity and IC fun became very exhausting. To the point where I felt I spent a solid 50% of my playtime mediating or trying to handle OOC stuff when really, I just wanted to play or tell a story. It's a necessary role, but it contributed to my own DM burnout immensely. Logging in as a DM to do XYZ ICly, only to get pulled four directions OOCly by four players with very real, very OOC concerns that, in my eyes, took precedent over playing really impacted how much fun I myself could have. DMs, while serving players, are also playing a game and need to have their own fun. If anyone, DM or player, isn't having fun anymore, it's time for a change.
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INDIVIDUALLY
What is a Dungeon Master: For me, a Dungeon Master should first and foremost be a story teller and scene-setter. Whether on the fly or for a long-term plot, their presence on the server should be primarily to enhance the player experience through interaction. Its like the little butter spreading robot from Rick and Morty asking what its purpose is. If you look at it from the wrong angle it sucks, but DMs and Players should exist in a state of symbiosis where both parties play in harmony to tell a story, be it an epic tale, a tragedy, or something whimsical just 'cause. A DM should someone who has had fun as a player and now wants to share their creation with their friends. I do not believe that DMs should not play as characters. While this might be awkward at a PnP table, Narfell is an online system and this should never be a problem. A DM should know that their PC isn't expected to drive their DM plot or benefit from a story they're telling.What should a Dungeon Master do?: Enjoy the role. If it's something you can't commit to it, or are no longer enjoying - step down and reapply later. Your role should be to engage the player, use the tools that are available to us all to make your intentions as a DM known - to show that there's an active plot, to entice players to come and roll dice at your digital table. These Forums are a great place to get the word out. Leaving notes and breadcrumbs in game. I'd encourage throwing the hook out and seeing who bites over dangling carrots in front of familiar faces.
IN A GROUP
As a part of the overall DM team, every DM should be prepared to explain their actions and to challenge the actions of others without fear of repercussion or retaliation. If something is seen to be unfair it should be raised as a concern immediately and perhaps not even exclusively within the DM's forums, but with the involvement of the PL/PGs (if reinstated). Transparency, moving forward. No-one should feel discouraged from having an opinion. As part of the DM team a DM should be capable of working together, or at least well enough with others that the ultimate goal can be met - which is to have fun.
