3. Narfell Crafting Guide

Narfell Crafting Guide


  • Crafting Guide

    1. Introduction
    Narfell uses a custom crafting system derived from the Ambrosia Tradeskill System (ATS). All skills are use-based, meaning that the more you use them the better you get at them. When an item is made it can turn out as a normal or 'masterwork' version which has additional properties.

    Narfell modifications mean that a PC can wield any weapon of an appropriate size category with an attack bonus penalty. You don’t have to have the martial weapon proficiency to be able to use crafting tools.

    Available Crafts are:
    Mining

    • Blacksmithing
    • Armourcrafting
    • Weaponcrafting
      Woodcutting
    • Woodworking
    • Bowyer
    • Fletcher
      Tanning

    The Craft Armour/Trap/Weapon skills have no effect in Narfell. If you have mistakenly invested points in these skills please contact a DM.

    For the crafting of magical items please see the Item Enchantment rules.

    2. Role Playing
    It's why we're all here, so how does crafting add to the RP experience?

    Adventure
    One of the best reasons to craft is that it’s a great hook for player led adventures. You don’t even have to be going to somewhere where you ‘know’ you can find resources. It’s often just as fun to go out looking for something and come back empty handed (and unencumbered!).

    Advancement
    Something really lovely about crafting in Narfell is that you can’t go backwards. Your PC can lose levels, lose their spouse, or be otherwise miserable, but they will never lose their crafting ability. It’s a way of advancing which isn’t tied in to XP, interpersonal relationships, or material possessions.

    In Character Motivation
    Characters craft for various reasons. For some it’s about creating beautiful things. The odd PC might take up crafting because of their patron deity or because their one of their parents did. Another might see the prices of weapons, point blank refuse to pay it, and resolve to make their own. Crafting to make money is a popular reason too.

    Friends and Mentors
    There can be a lot of camaraderie between crafter PCs. The respect someone has for their mentor tends to stay with them. And the mentor takes pride in their student’s accomplishments. Crafters on the whole always have something to talk about – whether it’s shared frustrations or achievements.

    Learning
    Role Playing out teaching and learning’s pretty good fun too. And can get very creative. The master who wears white gloves to make sure that their apprentices have cleaned up behind them. The novice woodworker given logs they can’t work out how to cut who ends up having them shoot out of the saw and hit something.

    Making and Selling
    There’s huge opportunity for RP here.

    Someone comes asking you for a bow? Take them out an adventure and watch them using the one they have to get an idea of what sort of wood might suit them. Way more fun than someone coming up to say, “I’d like to buy an elm bow.” After all, it’s the crafting specialist who’ll know what kind of wood’s going to suit best.

    Once you’ve established what your customer’s wanting made, barter! We’re not allowed to go below the server minimum prices, but there’s no limit on how high you can go. Your PC can of course refuse to sell to people they don’t like, or demand a ridiculous pile of gold for agreeing to.

    Something that’s great is for the two of you (along with whoever else) to go out and get the material together. Whether it requires a DM to drop the resource or it’s as simple as a trip to the closest cave, doing this adds a really nice personal touch to the finished item.

    For making the actual item don’t just be pressing “1.” “1.” “1.” until it pops out. RP the process. Let them watch what you’re PC’s doing and be in awe of their amazing skills! This isn’t someone buying one of a row of mass produced items from a shelf. They’re getting something special made lovingly just for them by a master of the craft.

    Tunnel Vision
    It’s also possible for crafting to have a negative influence on your enjoyment of the server. Sometimes you’ll set a goal and pursue it with a single-minded intensity. Once in a while okay. But if you’re crafting the entire time or consistently crafting alone you’re missing out on the rest of the game. Try to keep some balance and other people around.

    3. Learning to Craft

    Starting Out
    When you create a PC in Narfell you will see an item in your inventory called a Persistent Data Token. All your PC’s crafting skills will be recorded on this token. It’s impossible for you to lose it or your crafting skills.

    The first step in starting to craft is to learn the basics from an NPC master crafter. There are craft masters in a few places, but the ones every PC can reach are inside a building in the Peltarch Docks area called “Peltarch Trades and Craft Hall.”

    Master Blacksmith
    Teaches Blacksmithing, Weaponcrafting and Armorcrafting.

    Master Bowyer
    Teaches Bowyer, Fletcher, and Woodworking.

    Master Tanner
    Teaches Tanning

    Mining and Woodcutting can be used ‘untrained’ and are learned purely by using the skill.

    Each master charges 50 gold to teach you. The first time you pay that to one of the masters you get a book called “Trade Skill Progress Journal.” By right clicking on this book to ‘use’ it you can see how skilled you are in each craft and learn a little about it. This book is non-drop, but if you put non-drop items inside containers you can lose them, so be careful of that.

    Mining
    Mining is the art of extracting previous metals and gems from the earth. It requires the use of a tool called a “Mining Pick.” You can buy these from an NPC Blacksmith, from other PCs, or make them yourself using the Blacksmithing skill and metal ingots.

    To begin mining, equip a mining pick and attack an ore vein or mineable rock. At first the only type of ore vein you'll be able to mine is tin. You won’t be successful right away. When you are successful you'll get a lump of 'Tin Ore' and probably advance a point in the Mining skill. As you get better at mining tin you'll successfully break off ore more frequently. Once you get quite good at mining a particular material the rate you gain Mining points at will slow down. Finally, you'll be so good at mining it that you can't learn any more from that resource type and get the message, "This rock has become trivial to mine." Once you've reach that point you'll succeed in breaking off a lump of ore most times you swing at the vein, and you can start on the next material.

    If your PC isn't good enough at mining to mine a particular vein or rock you will be given the message, "You are too unskilled to mine this rock."

    The message "You cannot mine this rock" means that the resource can't be mined by anyone, no matter how good they are at mining. Crafters tend to refer to rocks like this as 'granite.'

    To progress from one metal to the next you need to mine gems in between. You can't make anything of these or sell them. This is because they are part of a jewelcrafting tradeskill whose products were deemed to powerful for Narfell's magic level.

    Smelting
    Ore is very heavy. Smelting it into ingots makes it weightless to carry around and is also what you have to do before you make anything from it.
    Take your ore to a crafting area such as the Peltarch Trades and Crafts Hall and look for the "Crafters Smelting Forge". Put all of your ore in there and choose the option to "Smelt Ore."

    Fuel
    To smelt ore there must be fuel in the forge. Each lump of coal is 4 units of fuel. You can buy coal from the NPC Blacksmith, from other PCs, or pick it up from dead monsters. To add fuel to the forge put the coal into it the same as you do with ore. When you close the forge the fuel will be added.

    Smelting Flame
    Smelting on a low flame is harder to do but when successful you get a lot of ingots. Smelting on a high flame is a lot easier but you don't get as many ingots. You get the option of changing the flame whenever you close the smelting oven.

    Order of Materials
    This is something your PC will need to learn from more experienced miners. Seek advice In Game, In Character.

    Blacksmithing
    Blacksmithing is an essential skill for any metal worker. When you smelt, it’s your blacksmithing skill which determines how much of your ore is turned into usable ingots. When you try to make an alloy you're using the blacksmithing skill. It’s also used to determine the quality of armour and weapons that you’re successful in making. To start off with, the main use of blacksmithing is for making tools from ingots. It's also the skill you use to make weapon heads for arrows and bolts.

    You develop your blacksmithing skill at the “Crafters Metallurgy Crucible.” To use this you must have a “Smithing Hammer” equipped. You can buy these from the NPC Master Blacksmith, from another PC, or (soon!) make them yourself.

    When you click the crucible you won’t be able to make much at first. As your skill increases you become able to make additional items and make things from additional metals.

    An item whose name is coloured red is very hard to make but if you manage to make it you’ll always get a blacksmithing point. An item in dark blue is quite hard to make, but you normally get a blacksmithing point for making one. An item in light blue is fairly easy to make and might give a blacksmithing point. A green item is so easy for you to make that you can’t learn anything from making one.

    Weaponcrafting
    Weaponcrafting is the ability to craft weapons out of metal ingots. You do this at the “Crafters Smithing Anvil” using a “Smithing Hammer.” You can buy a book of ‘Smith's Compendium” from the NPC Master Blacksmith which tells you how many ingots you need for each type of weapon.

    Armourcrafting
    Armourcrafting is the ability to craft armours, shields, helms and studs out of metal ingots. You do this at the “Smithing Anvil” using a “Smithing Hammer.” Some armours require additional components beyond just ingots. You can buy a book of ‘Smith's Compendium” from the NPC Master Blacksmith which tells you how many ingots and what else you need to make each type of armour.

    Salvaging
    Metal items can be melted down into ingots. You'll never get as many ingots back as it took to make the item and sometimes you won't get any at all. To melt down items you don't want to keep put them into the "Smelting Forge" and choose the "Salvage" option. To do this there must be fuel in the forge. It's because you're able to melt down successfully made items for another attempt that many metalworkers like to practice on items which are light blue to them.

    Woodcutting
    Woodcutting is the arf ot cutting useful common and rare wood from trees. It requires the use of a tool called a “Woodcutting Hatchet.” You can buy these from an NPC Bowyer, from other PCs, or make them yourself using the Blacksmithing skill and metal ingots.

    To begin woodcutting, equip a woodcutting hatchet and attack a harvestable tree. At first the only type of tree you’ll be able to cut is deadwood. You won’t be successful right away. When you are successful you'll get a log of deadwood and probably advance a point in the woodcutting skill. As you get better at woodcutting you'll successfully lop a branch off more frequently. Once you get quite good harvesting a particular wood the rate you gain woodcutting points at will slow down. Finally, you'll be so good that you can't learn any more from harvesting that resource type and you'll get the message, "This tree has become trivial to cute." Once you've reached that point you'll succeed in cutting a log most times you swing the hatchet and can start on the next type of wood.

    If your PC isn't good enough at woodcutting to cut a particular tree you will be given the message, "You are too unskilled to harvest this tree."

    The message "You cannot harvest this tree" means that it can’t be cut by anyone, no matter how good they are at woodcutting. Crafters tend to refer to trees like this as ‘rotten.’

    Woodcutting also used to determine how well you can saw logs into boards, and the quality of items that you’re successful in making

    Sawing
    Logs are very bulky. Sawing it into boards makes it take up space and weigh less. It’s also what you have to do to be able to make anything from it. Take your logs to a crafting area such as the Peltarch Trades and Crafts Hall and look for the "Crafters Wood Saw". Put all of your logs in there and choose the option to "Cut Logs."

    Saw Speed
    Sawing with a slow moving blade (white light) is harder to do but when successful you get more boards. Sawing with a fast moving blade is a lot easier but you don't get as many boards. You get the option to change the saw speed whenever you close the saw.

    Order of Materials
    This is something your PC will need to learn from more experienced woodcutters. Seek advice In Game, In Character.

    Woodworking
    Woodworking is the art of shaping useful construction materials from boards. It requires the use of a “Woodcarving Knife” at a “Crafters Woodshaping Horse.” You can buy woodcarving knives from an NPC Bowyer, from other PCs, or make them yourself using the blacksmithing skill and metal ingots.

    When you click the woodshaping horse you won’t be able to make much at first. As your skill increases you become able to make additional items and make things from additional woods.

    An item whose name is coloured red is very hard to make but if you manage to make it you’ll always get a woodworking point. An item in dark blue is quite hard to make, but you normally get a point for making one. An item in light blue is fairly easy to make and might give you a point. A green item is so easy for you to make that you can’t learn anything from making one.

    Colours
    Woodwork items can’t be reworked like metal items can be. For this reason many woodworkers like to practice on items which are dark blue to them.

    Bowyer
    Bowyering is the art of shaping bows and crossbows from wood staves and stocks made using the woodworking skill. It requires the use of a “Bowyers Knife” at a “Crafters Bowyering Rack.” You can buy woodcarving knives from an NPC Bowyer, from other PCs, or make them yourself using the blacksmithing skill and metal ingots.

    Bowyering knives will stack to 50, but separate one off the stack to equip it. This is because if one knife in a stack breaks you will lose the entire stack.

    A masterwork staff can’t be turned into a bow.

    Colours
    Bows and crossbows can’t be reworked like metal items can be. For this reason many woodworkers like to practice on items which are dark blue to them.

    Fletcher
    Fletching is the art of making bow and crossbow ammunition from wooden boards and metal weapon heads. It requires the use of a "Bowyers Knife" at a Crafters Bowyering Rack. You can buy bowyers knives from an NPC Bowyer, from other PCs, or make them yourself using the blacksmithing skill and metal ingots.

    You make arrow shafts then put metal heads on them. You cannot buy arrowheads from an NPC Master so will have to make them yourself or buy them from another PC.

    For woods above maple masterwork arrows give damage bonuses depending on the metal of the arrowhead.

    Any arrow without bonus damage will stack with any other regardless of the wood/metal used to make it.

    Colours
    An item whose name is coloured red is very hard to make but if you manage to make it you’ll always get a woodworking point. An item in dark blue is quite hard to make, but you normally get a point for making one. An item in light blue is fairly easy to make and might give you a point. A green item is so easy for you to make that you can’t learn anything from making one.

    Wooden items can’t be reworked like metal items can be. For this reason many fletchers like to practise on items which are dark blue to them.

    Tanning
    Tanning is the art of transforming animal hides/pelts and shells into useful items. Tanners can cure, tan, and harden hides. Treated hides are required for making some metal armour types. Tanners can also make clothing, armour, helms, shields, slings, whips and bags out of animal pelts and shells.

    To begin tanning you will need to collect animal hides. These can be bought from other players or skinned from various dead animals and beetles. To skin an animal simply equip any dagger and click on the ‘Animal Remains’ of a recently killed creature. The hide and meat will appear in your inventory unless it is full.

    There is no skill requirement to be able to skin animals.

    Curing
    Once you have your hides take them to a crafting area such as the Peltarch Trades and Crafts Hall. To cure hides you need a “Tanning Kit” which you buy from the NPC Master Tanner. Larger hides take more than one tanning kit. There is currently no way to get a tanning kit other than buying it from an NPC. With hides and tanning kits in your inventory use the “Crafters Tanning Smoker” to cure your hides.

    Because there's no skill requirement to be able to skin animals you'll often find yourself with hides which you're not skilled enough to cure. If you don't have anywhere to store these you might be able to sell them to other PCs.

    Tanning
    To tan a cured hide you need one deadwood log for each hide. You can get logs from another PC or cut them yourself using the woodcutting skill and a woodcutting hatchet. With cure hides and deadwood logs in your inventory, use the “Crafters Tanning Basin.”

    Hardening
    To harden a tanned hide in the crafters tanning basin you need to use tanning kits purchased from the NPC Master Tanner.

    Making Items
    Leather based items are made at the “Crafters Tanning Table” with a “Tanner's Sewing Kit.” You can buy a sewing kit from an NPC Master Tanner. Unlike all of the other crafting tools this doesn’t degrade and one kit will last you forever. You can’t equip the sewing kit, you just need to have it in your inventory to be able to use the tanning table.

    You can find out what components you need to make each item by choosing to make and being told what you’re lacking. You can also buy the 'Collection of Burned Hides' from the NPC Master Tanner which lists items alphabetically by type but gives no idea of the skill level required for making the items.

    In the case of studs you can buy these from the NPC Master Blacksmith, buy them from another PC, or make them yourself using the armourcrafting skill.

    Colours
    Tanning is very different from the other crafting skills in this respect. You will essentially get a tanning point every single time you successfully make an item unless it’s green to you.

    However, with the other crafts once you’re past the first little bit you’ll normally have a selection of items available to you in all the different colours. With tanning, an item goes from red to green very quickly. Sometimes you’ll only be able to make red items and you’ll have a great many unsuccessful attempts between each successful one. This is an intentional part of tanning system design. Since a single skill governs every aspect of tanning it takes more work to get points in this skill than in the others.

    When you try to make a red item you normally fail and lose all your components. A dark blue item you’ll often fail. When you try to make a light blue item you’ll normally succeed. Because you get a tanning point for successfully creating any tanning item except green ones, most tanners prefer to make light blue items when the option’s available.

    Raw Meat
    You get meat as a by-product of skinning animals. Whenever you see a usable fire you can cook this into food which you can eat to rest. Simply right click the meat and ‘use’ it on the fire.

    How to Find Resources
    There are naturally spawning mineable rocks and harvestable trees around Narfell. To find out where these are and what materials you can expect to find in each place have your PC ask other PCs in character.

    DMs may spice up a player run crafting trip or even run their own crafting events. When they do this you can find resources in areas that you wouldn't normally get there.

    Tool Quality
    Tools made from better quality metals last longer. Each tool type can be used a set number of times before it breaks. A silver pick can be swung many more times than a tin one before breaking.

    4. Rules and Recommendations

    Pricing Crafted Goods
    There are strict rules governing the pricing of crafted goods. This is an OOC ruling which every crafter must adhere to. Specifically, it is for server balance and to prevent the market from being flooded with high quality crafted goods for very little gold.

    The Official Narfell Crafted Items Price List is a DM set list of Minimum prices for all crafted goods. The initial sales of items by crafters must be for these prices. Crafters are allowed to accept trade-ins of old crafted items at list price.

    The set crafted item prices are in place and enforced but on RARE occasions a crafter may give an item to a non crafting friend. As with any valuable gift it's advisable to run it past a DM before you give it away because if DMs see relatively new characters with good gear they will be asking how they got it and may take sanctions against the person who gave it to them.

    If you get so good at your craft that there's no price listed this means that you can't sell the item. You can still make things for skill points and to trade to NPCs in events.

    The Lag Monster
    Things lying on the ground take up server resources. If you check a resource and it's not what you want, you may not leave the ore/log lying on the ground. For the same reason, don't mine/cut more than you can carry. If you end up in this situation and your party can't manage to carry the resources among them you can put the excess on a dead monster and it will vanish along with the monster.

    While working at a crafting station you are not allowed to let things pile up on the ground under you. You must keep room in your inventory. In the case of woodworkers especially this will entail frequent trips to the trash can.

    Respawns
    For naturally occurring resource spawns it's generally accepted that you can wait for one set of respawns. This does not mean you can go afk to wait. This does not mean you can stand doing nothing.

    If mining RPly you will be trying to see if there’s a second vein deeper in the rock, or looking around to see if there have been any rockfalls. If woodcutting RPly you will be looking around the other trees to see if any are big enough/small enough/straight enough to use, etc.

    What’s better than either of these things is if you go off somewhere else and come back later. As soon as you wait around for more than one respawn that becomes ‘camping’ the area, and this is frowned upon.

    Respawns of DM resource spawns can never under any circumstances be harvested. When a DM drops ore or trees they do so only after having taking a number of risk/reward factors into consideration. They drop precisely what they want you to have apply a script to the resources which prevents them from respawning. If for some reason this doesn’t work and you see a DM dropped resource respawn it is your responsibility to report it immediately so that the resource can be destroyed.

    ”Clearing the Deadwood”
    It is very frustrating when you go to an area looking for a particular wood and it hasn’t spawned that day. With metal, lower quality ores are still useful. Wood isn’t. And it’s far more bulky to carry than ore because you can only fit half as much in the same number of containers. While a metalworker might mine a rock of low quality ore for tool making and wait for their one respawn, a woodworker probably doesn’t have enough inventory space to lug around wood that’s useless to them. It’s out of this that the practice of “Clearing the Deadwood” came from. You can ‘chop’ down a tree when the weapon you’ve got equipped isn’t a woodcutting hatchet.

    You may do this once on a trip and once only. You are expected to RP it as ‘clearing back deadwood’ to give the other trees more space/light to grow healthily. For RP you can’t chop a tree down with a sword or hammer. Take a non-magical axe with you. Don’t be surprised if the weapon you’re using ‘breaks’ (is destroyed by a DM) for being used for something it wasn’t designed for.

    Dual Wielding
    This refers to mining or woodcutting with a pick or hatchet equipped in each hand. While some PCs are very disparaging of ones who use 'the two pick technique' that's an IC issue; there's no rule saying that you can’t dual wield crafting tools. However, please think about whether it’s realistic for your PC to attempt it.

    Druid Oaths
    In Narfell, equipping and using crafting tools is not a violation of druid oaths.

    5. Errata

    Crafting Points Vanishing
    On a very rare occasion the crafting database might not boot up following a server reset. The in game effect of this is that no-one has any crafting skill points until a sever admin reboots the database. This is incredibly rare and the chances are that you'll never see it happen.

    Ore in Walls
    When adding naturally respawning resource spawns to the Narfell module some choices need to be made One of these is the distance the veins can spawn from the central spawn point.

    The ore can spawn in a fixed or very narrowly defined location. This means that the ore will always spawn in exactly the same place, every time. It allows very fine control of exactly how much ore is available to PCs and if placed properly, prevents ore from showing up in walls, but is dull. You could navigate there with your eyes closed, and deal with the same spawns every time. Some areas in Narfell use this method.

    Alternatively, ore can be spawned off fewer spawn points with a much larger random distribution. This has the advantage of spawning it in widely varying locations on the map, but the disadvantage that there is no direct way to prevent it from spawning inside a wall or other object. Some areas in Narfell use this method. Where this is the case, the number of ore spawns was increased proportionally to the amount of wall space in the spawn area, with the expectation that some of the ore would spawn inside the wall, but the increased number of veins would keep the correct amount spawning outside it.

    Shallow Veins and Small Trees
    When adding naturally respawning resource spawns to the Narfell module some choices need to be made. One of these is the durability of the resources. Resource spawns with a low durability will be destroyed after a lower number of swings.

    ”But I got X Here Before”
    When adding naturally respawning resource spawns to the Narfell module some choices need to be made. One of these is which resources can spawn in each location. Each time a harvestable tree or minable rock is due to be spawned, the server rolls on a table of spawns possible for that location. Locations may have one, two, three or even more possibilities. Higher quality resources will usually have a lower percentage chance of spawning.

    Granite and Rotten Trees
    When adding naturally respawning resource spawns to the Narfell module some choices need to be made. One of these is which resources can spawn in each location. Each time a harvestable tree or minable rock is due to be spawned, the server rolls on table of spawns possible for that location. If the table has some blank entries and the server rolls here, the resulting resource is ‘granite’ or ‘rotten’ and can’t be harvested. This is an intentional part of the crafting system.

    Other Places to Craft
    The Peltarch Trades and Craft Hall is the only crafting station open to the general public, but there are multiple other places you can craft in Narfell. Where they are and how you can access them is something to ask about in game and IC.

    ”Help! The Smelting Forge has Broken!”
    Once in a while you might select to smelt your ore and the forge only does one lump of ore instead of the whole lot. When this happens keep on smelting one lump at a time while watching the top left of your screen. At some point the forge will fix itself and smelt all the ore you’ve put in it. You’ll be able to tell this has happened when you see lots of queued actions appear at the top left.

    Send one message to the DM channel describing the problem. This will be taken into consideration in determining when the server needs to be rebooted.

    You are advised not to put bags or boxes inside the forge as it may be this practise that causes it to break.

    ”Mastering” a Material
    PCs say that they’ve ‘mastered’ an ore or wood type when they can no longer gain skill points for successfully harvesting it. Whenever you get the message, "This rock (tree) has been trivial to mine (cut)" you have mastered that material.

    Racial Items
    This only applies to tanning. On the price list for leatherworked goods you will see various items with a race in their name, eg for boots'"Halfling Creepers" "Boots of Elvenkind" "Dwarven Flatbottomed." These items can only be made by the named race.

    Crafted Item Properties
    You will not find a list of crafted item properties recorded anywhere. This is because it's unrealistic to have one PC walking up to another saying, "Hey, I want this thing I've never seen!" RP it out. Find a crafter and say you're looking for eg a cloak or sword and ask what they can offer you

    You can get a rough idea of the sort of possibilities from the properties crafted items carry forward when enchanted. Scroll down to the post from October 9th. This is only a very rough idea because items lose some of their starting properties when enchanted, for server balance.

  • Dev

    All this information has been migrated to the wiki and can be found at https://narfell.us/wiki/doku.php?id=features:systems:crafting


  • Bumping for this section:

    Pricing Crafted Goods
    There are strict rules governing the pricing of crafted goods. This is an OOC ruling which every crafter must adhere to. Specifically, it is for server balance and to prevent the market from being flooded with high quality crafted goods for very little gold.

    The Official Narfell Crafted Items Price List is a DM set list of Minimum prices for all crafted goods. The initial sales of items by crafters must be for these prices. Crafters are allowed to accept trade-ins of old crafted items at list price.

    The set crafted item prices are in place and enforced but on RARE occasions a crafter may give an item to a non crafting friend. As with any valuable gift it's advisable to run it past a DM before you give it away because if DMs see relatively new characters with good gear they will be asking how they got it and may take sanctions against the person who gave it to them.

    If you get so good at your craft that there's no price listed this means that you can't sell the item. You can still make things for skill points and to trade to NPCs in events.

    Source:
    http://www.narfell.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=49262

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