Stealth issue.Realism or not.
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If we are talking about realism then we should have in mind that there is magic in the game also.
Realism at a point.
NWN doesn't simulate best the real world.If it was then there wouldn't be magic also.And because it doesn't simulate the world best then in area's with only air there should virtually exists an object somewhere.
I think this subject of existing objects in the middle of a 'clear' area requires our imagination a little,don't you think?
After all Narfell encourages the imagination.
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Oh look, this thread came back to life…...
AGAIN.......
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If you have grass enabled you will see (for hin and gnomes anyway) there is plenty of places to hide in these "clear" areas…
maybe a short dwarf too...
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I use the excuse that my character is an Elf, and can hide anywhere because Elves are glorious like that…
Not really, some stealthy characters can use spells like Camoflage, whether that means the opposing character sees a curious single bush, barrel or box that seems to follow them here and there or not is another question.
Hiding in a blizzard or rainstorm is normally my favorite 'cover', but my sneaky characters normally don't try sneaking outside of the forested areas anyway, so it's not like there's any shortage of obvious cover.
People sneaking up the middle of whatever road in the bright day, I guess... they need a cooler excuse. Especailly the ones who can't cast/use Camoflage!
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Maybe another thin that could be taken into account is the fact that there is a big gulf between player skill and character skill. A player may know nothing about arcane lore, but there is a lore skill. A player may know nothing about martial stances or acrobatic maneuvers, but there is a discipline and tumble skill. In the same way, a player may be silly enough to stand somewhere were logically they would be spotted, but IC there character would never be there if they were trying to remain unseen as the character has the skill to know better. I've often played it that a character in stealth mode is "somewhere in the area hiding" rather than standing in plain sight but invisible to folks who don't have a good enough spot skill.
That said, the engine does take things like cover and lighting into account.
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Illusions do have their place, they are called illusionists. It is real magic, interestingly enough most illusionists aren't sneaks precisely because their craft makes sneaking irrelevant. Remaining hidden or unnoticed is much easier when you have nearly unlimited powers of misdirection.
For the most part, if a person is moving while in stealth, it is easy to give them the benefit of the doubt. They are finding cover, they are timing their footfalls, etc, etc. That the engine does not represent every hiding spot should not be held against the stealther.
When it comes to standing still, then problems arise. Generally speaking, if you try to sneak close enough to hear whispers…you are going to be caught. I understand the argument of 'they see you, they just don't really notice you', but NWN doesn't really provide this option. As far as the eavesdropped characters know, there is only empty space around them.
So like all things, use your head.
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Nimbrethil i don 't want to be misunderstood
I think i m a person who supports logic.Of course going and sit by a person in front of a campfire without be noticed is a bit crazy,especially for stealth and hide mode where it is stated as body-physical-visual skills.
I just wanted to add to a previous matter where rolls took place in similar situation.That in some situation very good illusionists can confuse your eyes.
There are examples where people disappear only after a smoke effect,find the right card without seeing it in front of you, disappear objects in front of your naked eyes,even cut other people in half.Skilled people in illusions, such as rogues make things seem almost magical so they could confuse you in ''naked'' areas only by using your eyes weakness.
So in the end we should just let nwn do its work in more complex situations of sneaking.Of course in very simple situations as walking in the middle of a room where people look at that point,no1 should take advantage of the game's engine,but in more complicated matters….illusions IMHO should play their role.
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I think it's also good to keep these things in mind:
- Stealth is not about being out of site. It's about not being noticed. If you are hiding, you can still be "seen" - the photons still bounce of the surface of your body and hit the retina of the person you are hiding from - it's just that they don't notice you. Same with moving "silently". I think that this could include moving in time with the other sounds around you - the dripping in a cave, the clopping of a horses hooves. Being in stealth is not about being invisible, it's about not being noticed. Sometimes not being noticed could include walking through a cave full of foes as if you were one of them - walking through like it's no big deal. Sneaking in a crouch can sometimes draw more attention to yourself than acting innocently does.
- In PnP you can use the hide skill to blend into a crowd. Again, its about not being noticed rather than not being seen.
- In PnP you can also attempt to hide in the dark (no need for physical cover) and in mist. Anything that grants concealment.
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The answer to this as with most things is complex, unsatisfying, and requires people to use common sense.
Yes, this is a fantasy world. No, that doesn't mean logic and realism goes out the window.
Obviously in the real world people can't mumble words and thereby toss fireballs, but NWN is not portraying the real world. It's portraying an imaginary world that has different world-laws, which (barring errors and bad editing) are internally consistent and make sense within the framework of that world. 'There's magic' is not a blanket excuse for things not to make any sense.
Now, the game engine is limited, and we all have to make allowances for that. Sometimes that does mean stretching our imaginations a bit. In the case of sneaking, it means assuming that the sneaker is using cover, shadows, etc rather than hitting a button and walking slowly.
That said, sometimes people out and out flaunt it. Like standing next to a bright campfire listening to people. Or standing right in front of them in the middle of an empty room. Things that, even if we give a generous helping of imagination to add cover, etc, are simply not believable without something like an invisibility spell.
So in summary, people need to cut sneakers and the engine some slack, and sneakers need to act like they're sneaking and not like they are magically invisible.
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He's talking about this:
Mr. Sneakypants is in a valley sneaking behind Mr. Badass Bob.
The engine only shows you a road, and the rest is green ground.
Badass Bob turns casually, and Mr.Sneakypants is not seen.People wonder: HOW IS HE HIDING IF THERE'S NOWHERE TO HIDE!!!
Answer: THe Nwn is limited, it wont shot high-grass in comparison with low-grass, there's always lower and higher ground which can act as cover, rocks where people can crouch behind or who knows what.
That's what he was talking about I believe.
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I'm not sure if I'm following. then again I seldom do.
Can you give an example of where an extra touch of imagination is required? only thing I can come up with is the effects of having an invisible entity walking through, say, smoke or a very thick fog, in which case with some 'imagination' your characters awareness of someone's presence might make sense… or am I way off here in my speculations, goldenboy?
