Stealth Rulings
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Ace, we're human. We get a kick out of complicating matters.
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This is D&D, a dice game. What happend to the simple, if you roll high enough, you hide? if you roll high enough, you spot?
Jesus. Why do we need special rules to modify things?
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I don't want to create a metagaming situation, but if this was at all related to a pickpocketing tendency of a certain character, I think that doubles the intensity of negative reactions. Other players want to be included on the RP, and a stealthed person lifting their gold undetected isn't at all what they expected (even if it is fair). If that's the case, try alternating stealthed pickpocketing techniques with confidence tricks and other ways of distracting the PC from what you're about to do. That gives the other player a chance to interact and have fun too.
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Ways to get more spot:
Feat Alertness (+2 spot, +2 listen)
Feat Artist (+2 spot, +2 perform)
Feat Blooded (+2 spot, +2 initiative)
Feat skill focus (+3)
Ranger levels (+1 spot every 5 levels against fav. enemies)
Elves (+2 spot and you're always in detect mode)
Ways to get more hide:
Feat stealthy (+2 hide, +2 move silently)
Skill focus (+3)
Ranger level (+4 hide, +4 move silently in natural areas)
Small races (+4)
Spells:
Camouflage (only rangers and druids): +10 hide
One with the land (only rangers and druids): +4 hide, +4 move silently
–-Clairaudience/clairvoyance (bard, sorcerer, wizard, cleric with domain knowledge): +10 listen, +10 spot
Amplify: +20 listen
True seeing (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, cleric with animal or knowledge domain): Automatic succes in spot and listen
The rules seem pretty balanced. I agree, though that in Narfell there are lots of items giving nice bonus in hide/move silently and few giving spot/listen.
Even so my spot/listen is 24/24 (19/19 without items) so I'd be able to spot most of the sneakers except the high level ones (remember that while in detect mode you are making opposed rolls all the time and you only need to succed in one to detect the sneaker. So I can detect people with about 35 hide/move silently in few rounds usually). Note that I cant use any spells to enhance my detect skills and that I dont have skill focus in spot and I'm not an elf.What I want to say with all this is... you dont like people sneaking around you and want to detect them? You can! Just put skills in listen/spot and get some feats.
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@a86d647315:
Walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench, staying stealthed while you listen to a conversation for twenty minutes
You could be hiding under the bench, for example.
@a86d647315:
It reminds me of someone standing in the middle of a room, stealthed. What exactly are you hiding behind?
As long as a DM doesnt state that a certain room or area has no cover I'd assume it has something to hide behind. NWN engine is not a perfect representation of the world.
@a86d647315:
Stealth is easily exploitable by the NwN engine…
I dont see where's stealth easily exploitable. All factors are in for the opposed rolls hide-spot. You need real cover to hide if someone is around (you even cant hide behind most trees)
Here's a list of modifiers to the spot check:
- +10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
- +5 DC if the target is standing still.
- -5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
- Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8 ).
- Area spot check modifiers.
- +5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
- +5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
- -10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.
If we want areas without cover we could modify the area spot check modifiers.
Now the list for listen checks:
- +10 DC if the listener is in combat.
- +5 DC if the target is standing still.
- -5 DC if the listener is standing still.
- +1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
- Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8 ).
- +5 DC for every 40cm of object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
- +2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.
- Area listen check modifiers.
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Sorry, should clarify a bit more on that part. Walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench, staying stealthed while you listen to a conversation for twenty minutes (and yes it does happen at times) is NOT realistic. Yes, sneaking up and sitting on a bench stealthed can be seen as sneaking up behind someone to startle them, but once you hit that bench, the stealth needs to come off.
Narfell seems to offer up quite a few items that are sneaky and a lack of items to equal out the listen and spot, a 30 hide is good, but I wouldn't say superhuman and it always had to do with realism in a way. I don't care if you have a +120 hide. If there is nothing to hide behind, the "Hide" skill becomes pretty useless. It reminds me of someone standing in the middle of a room, stealthed. What exactly are you hiding behind? The air? A +120 Hide doesn't do much when there is only air to hide behind.
Once again, do whats realistic.
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Hogwash! I'm superhumanly good at whining, ranting and generally annoying DM's, and I don't see it anywhere on my character sheet!
That said, sub-lvl 21 characters are not superhuman. They're above average. Epic level characters are superhuman.
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Well, Hide in Plain Sight only gives ability to use the Hide skill while being observed. Whereas plain Hide requires you to have cover to begin hiding. Also, sneaking to someone by a fire is rather simple - go for the backside before sitting next to them.
Also, as I stated before.. high skillpoints in Hide start to have nothing to do with realism - the hero is superhumanly good at it.
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I've had this conversation before with multiple players. Do what feels realistic. It's that simple. If there is something to hide behind, go for it and stealth. But think before you do, walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench stealthed is NOT realistic. Walking beside a fire, in the open, opening a chest while people are staring right at it, looting multiple items, is NOT realistic. Hiding in the "grass" in a town is even stretching it most times, as most would figure it would somewhat be cut down, unlike outside the towns, so unless you're 6 inches tall.. yeah.
Stealth is easily exploitable by the NwN engine, use your head, do what seems right and never fear, because if I'm around, I'll gladly say something if I think it's off.
Remember, only Shadowdancers can Hide in Plain Sight and the engine doesn't always take this into account when sneaks wander in already stealthed.
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STEALTH IS FOR THE WEAK!
That said, there's a lot of interpretations for stealth. It can mean ducking and weaving between cover, it can mean blending into a crowd. But why stop there? If your stealther has access to enchantments, why not argue that he actually walks around in broad daylight, but people unconciously look away (as Obfuscate worked in V:TM). No will save required because the effect is so subtle and natural nobody would think there's something fishy going on.
Or what about using a pretty bardess to stroll by as decoy? In other words, using distractions. I've never seen how someone can spot a creature hiding 50 yards away behind a rock while they're fighting for their lives against a bunch of orcs.
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@669026c9c0=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
That's hitting the nail right on the head, SummonerX.
By taking it to rolls, it get's somewhat ooc, at least,
not related to in game locations/actions.
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Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
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It -was- a pretty skinny tree.
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Okay - my two cents worth, and it is really only worth two cents so you can take it or leave it…
The game engin actually takes into account lighting and cover. Chech here http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Listen and here http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot for full details on how the engine checks the environment when making spot and listen rolls. Also, when making an area a dev can set the area spot and listen check modifiers for areas that are devoid of cover, or areas that are dark and noisy and easy to sneak about in.
Now as far as spotting folks in stealth goes (this is the bit you can take or leave) when you are in stealth mode your character isn't actually where it is. If you are in stealth you are crouching behind boulders, lying in grass, darting from cover to cover. If your toon happens to be standing in the middle of an open area while in stealth, that shouldn't be taken as you actually standing in the open. In my mind, when your character goes transparent, it's symbolic of the fact that they "could be anywhere". Lets face it - the toon in the game can't crouch down, hide in long grass, hide on rooftops perch on top of door frames and so on. So let's not come down on stealthers for hiding in the open - that isn't really fair seeing that there isn't any way in game to hide in all the locations that they would actually be hiding.
Also keep in mind that the hide skill can also be used to blend into a crowd, and go unnoticed. There is a difference between seeing a character and perceiving them. I'd say that you see something when light reflects of the surface of their body and hits your retina. Perceiving is when your mind uses that reflected light to gain an understanding of its surroundings. So a hin rogue walking past in plain sight with no cover blending into the crowd to remain unnoticed could be a totally valid use of the stealth skill.
So if you want to sneak past someone at Norwick's campfire, let the engine do the work. Don't go making rolls and stuff. That'll just cause fights. The rolls you can make with the PC wand are really for when the DM asks for them. Don't go trying to use your skill rolls against other PCs, it just irritates them. That goes for persuade, intimidate and other skill rolls too. It's okay to add them for a bit of RP flavour, but a PC is in no way bound to fall in line with what you roll. They can choose to, but a PC target should get to set their own DC.
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My personal opinion is to not get fussy over where people are hiding. There's grass to hide behind, the land probably isn't all flat like in NWN, the characters aren't restricted to hiding on the ground, etc - IMO, a char with 30 hide could hide almost anywhere all ninja like. Also, looking at Hide from d20srd.org, it only says you need to have cover initially, when you try to hide. After that, you don't need cover. 'cause you're superherolike sneaky.
30 skillpoints is not "pretty good", in any skill. It's far better than that. Here's an example from PHB - Perform skill with DC 30. Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant potential patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.
If singing gets extraplanar attention, sneaks probably could hide right under your nose. 'cause you probably wouldn't stare at the ground.
