Stealth Rulings
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@5fdeb3a05a=EodenValmer:
Like I say there are 1001 different situations where stealth cover etc can be applied…so as said ask a DM.
And if its against a player...then you need a DM anyways. Unless there is mutually agreed PvP which could include agreed sneak stuff, but I would err on the side of caution and ask a DM.
But to reiterate there are far too many scenarios involving stealth for one blanket ruling to cover.I have no problem with this route, the only issue occurs when there isn't a DM online/available to moderate such things, what's to happen then? Especially if players disagree on what can and can't happen? Should the whole 'encounter' just be postponed until a DM can be found? Should we wing it and hope it find a resolution? I know DM's are often busy with other groups running events, or planning events and the like, just wondering what the best course of action is if a DM isn't available?
As seen by the previous two posts by DM's of Narfell, it seems there isn't even really a consensus between DM's on how stealth should be covered, if the DM's are on the same page it would be a lot easier to regulate/be aware of what should/can happen with regards to stealth…
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@8ba6172250=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
This is the easiest route to take. Why make it difficult, stealth is build into the engine. Its pretty simple, if they detect you, they will see you, if not, they wont.
When in an event or asked by a DM to roll these things, they will give the ultimate ruling on what happens. Otherwise just use stealth mode.
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Like I say there are 1001 different situations where stealth cover etc can be applied…so as said ask a DM.
And if its against a player...then you need a DM anyways. Unless there is mutually agreed PvP which could include agreed sneak stuff, but I would err on the side of caution and ask a DM.
But to reiterate there are far too many scenarios involving stealth for one blanket ruling to cover.
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I don't really think we've come to a concensus regarding a ruling on this sort of thing, seeing as I was the one Vitiosus was trying to hide from and also the one who had the concept of realism in stealth explained to, I tried to pass that concept on to Vitiosus, the problem is, as Vitiosus said, we don't have a definate ruling, some DM's think one way, others think another, and more often than not PC's think completely different to both of the aforementioned.
Personally the way I've come to think of stealthing, is that if you try and stealth through an open area without cover, in decent lighting, it's like trying to hide without cover all over again, and as such takes a -40 penalty on the check (Could be -20 I'm not 100% on that) But essentially the way I think is if I'm going somewhere I can potentially be seen it's like rolling a new hide check each round with any given penalties, using stealth while in cover then wandering into the open for instance wouldn't use the same check as it was made with said cover and now you're wandering in the open.
Having said that, taking into account situational differences, such as a character trying to stealth behind someone's back (Literally) wouldn't draw attention at all unless you were to fail on your oppose Move Silently check, or if the character has eyes in the back of their head.
The problem with not having a set ruling on it, is people's use of common sense varies greatly from other peoples, (As I've found out recently) and leaves it open to a lot of disagreement on the issue. So if we could get a definitive and linear ruling on this it would be much appreciated.
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@b927ea716a=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
QFT.
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Hear hear!
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Actually its DnD and what’s rule number 1?
DM decision is final…question answered.Or in other words if in doubt ask a DM there are far too many possible situations to cover here. Trust me I have heard some fairly awesome reasoning behind completely ridiculous uses of various skills, but the crux is, its still bollox. So use some common sense and if a DM disagrees then that’s that.
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Ace, we're human. We get a kick out of complicating matters.
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This is D&D, a dice game. What happend to the simple, if you roll high enough, you hide? if you roll high enough, you spot?
Jesus. Why do we need special rules to modify things?
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I don't want to create a metagaming situation, but if this was at all related to a pickpocketing tendency of a certain character, I think that doubles the intensity of negative reactions. Other players want to be included on the RP, and a stealthed person lifting their gold undetected isn't at all what they expected (even if it is fair). If that's the case, try alternating stealthed pickpocketing techniques with confidence tricks and other ways of distracting the PC from what you're about to do. That gives the other player a chance to interact and have fun too.
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Ways to get more spot:
Feat Alertness (+2 spot, +2 listen)
Feat Artist (+2 spot, +2 perform)
Feat Blooded (+2 spot, +2 initiative)
Feat skill focus (+3)
Ranger levels (+1 spot every 5 levels against fav. enemies)
Elves (+2 spot and you're always in detect mode)
Ways to get more hide:
Feat stealthy (+2 hide, +2 move silently)
Skill focus (+3)
Ranger level (+4 hide, +4 move silently in natural areas)
Small races (+4)
Spells:
Camouflage (only rangers and druids): +10 hide
One with the land (only rangers and druids): +4 hide, +4 move silently
–-Clairaudience/clairvoyance (bard, sorcerer, wizard, cleric with domain knowledge): +10 listen, +10 spot
Amplify: +20 listen
True seeing (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, cleric with animal or knowledge domain): Automatic succes in spot and listen
The rules seem pretty balanced. I agree, though that in Narfell there are lots of items giving nice bonus in hide/move silently and few giving spot/listen.
Even so my spot/listen is 24/24 (19/19 without items) so I'd be able to spot most of the sneakers except the high level ones (remember that while in detect mode you are making opposed rolls all the time and you only need to succed in one to detect the sneaker. So I can detect people with about 35 hide/move silently in few rounds usually). Note that I cant use any spells to enhance my detect skills and that I dont have skill focus in spot and I'm not an elf.What I want to say with all this is... you dont like people sneaking around you and want to detect them? You can! Just put skills in listen/spot and get some feats.
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@a86d647315:
Walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench, staying stealthed while you listen to a conversation for twenty minutes
You could be hiding under the bench, for example.
@a86d647315:
It reminds me of someone standing in the middle of a room, stealthed. What exactly are you hiding behind?
As long as a DM doesnt state that a certain room or area has no cover I'd assume it has something to hide behind. NWN engine is not a perfect representation of the world.
@a86d647315:
Stealth is easily exploitable by the NwN engine…
I dont see where's stealth easily exploitable. All factors are in for the opposed rolls hide-spot. You need real cover to hide if someone is around (you even cant hide behind most trees)
Here's a list of modifiers to the spot check:
- +10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
- +5 DC if the target is standing still.
- -5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
- Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8 ).
- Area spot check modifiers.
- +5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
- +5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
- -10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.
If we want areas without cover we could modify the area spot check modifiers.
Now the list for listen checks:
- +10 DC if the listener is in combat.
- +5 DC if the target is standing still.
- -5 DC if the listener is standing still.
- +1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
- Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8 ).
- +5 DC for every 40cm of object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
- +2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.
- Area listen check modifiers.
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Sorry, should clarify a bit more on that part. Walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench, staying stealthed while you listen to a conversation for twenty minutes (and yes it does happen at times) is NOT realistic. Yes, sneaking up and sitting on a bench stealthed can be seen as sneaking up behind someone to startle them, but once you hit that bench, the stealth needs to come off.
Narfell seems to offer up quite a few items that are sneaky and a lack of items to equal out the listen and spot, a 30 hide is good, but I wouldn't say superhuman and it always had to do with realism in a way. I don't care if you have a +120 hide. If there is nothing to hide behind, the "Hide" skill becomes pretty useless. It reminds me of someone standing in the middle of a room, stealthed. What exactly are you hiding behind? The air? A +120 Hide doesn't do much when there is only air to hide behind.
Once again, do whats realistic.
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Hogwash! I'm superhumanly good at whining, ranting and generally annoying DM's, and I don't see it anywhere on my character sheet!
That said, sub-lvl 21 characters are not superhuman. They're above average. Epic level characters are superhuman.
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Well, Hide in Plain Sight only gives ability to use the Hide skill while being observed. Whereas plain Hide requires you to have cover to begin hiding. Also, sneaking to someone by a fire is rather simple - go for the backside before sitting next to them.
Also, as I stated before.. high skillpoints in Hide start to have nothing to do with realism - the hero is superhumanly good at it.
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I've had this conversation before with multiple players. Do what feels realistic. It's that simple. If there is something to hide behind, go for it and stealth. But think before you do, walking up beside someone and sitting on a bench stealthed is NOT realistic. Walking beside a fire, in the open, opening a chest while people are staring right at it, looting multiple items, is NOT realistic. Hiding in the "grass" in a town is even stretching it most times, as most would figure it would somewhat be cut down, unlike outside the towns, so unless you're 6 inches tall.. yeah.
Stealth is easily exploitable by the NwN engine, use your head, do what seems right and never fear, because if I'm around, I'll gladly say something if I think it's off.
Remember, only Shadowdancers can Hide in Plain Sight and the engine doesn't always take this into account when sneaks wander in already stealthed.
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STEALTH IS FOR THE WEAK!
That said, there's a lot of interpretations for stealth. It can mean ducking and weaving between cover, it can mean blending into a crowd. But why stop there? If your stealther has access to enchantments, why not argue that he actually walks around in broad daylight, but people unconciously look away (as Obfuscate worked in V:TM). No will save required because the effect is so subtle and natural nobody would think there's something fishy going on.
Or what about using a pretty bardess to stroll by as decoy? In other words, using distractions. I've never seen how someone can spot a creature hiding 50 yards away behind a rock while they're fighting for their lives against a bunch of orcs.
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@669026c9c0=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
That's hitting the nail right on the head, SummonerX.
By taking it to rolls, it get's somewhat ooc, at least,
not related to in game locations/actions.
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Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
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It -was- a pretty skinny tree.
