Stealth Rulings
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What I'm after is a definite Stealth rulings by the DMs.
After a rather heated argument with Noxnoctis in regards to a DM ruling he was given about Stealth, I figure I need something definite. We'll use what brought on the argument as an example:Player A is rolling Hide [18] & Move Silently [11] checks to sneak past the outside of the Norwick campfire. He is just on the radius of the light source, providing very dim light.
Player B is at the campfire, not actively looking for Player A. He rolls a Spot [18] and Listen [11]. He sees and hears Player A because he has beaten the DC, and begins to watch him.
Now, this is fine by me entirely. The checks were made, and Player B beat the DCs set by Player A.
Player A creeps over to a tree while being observed by Player B, where he uses the cover of said tree to reapply his Hide [20] check to avoid being seen. He isn't moving at the time, but preemptively he rolls a Move Silently [11] to keep what was happening running smoothly.
Player B rolls a Spot [16] and Listen [11] check. He fails to see Player A behind the tree, but hears him when he starts to walk towards another piece of cover. Player B looks in direction of noise.
We argued over the "fact" that at this point I no longer had cover, thus in plain sight, thus he could see me due to a ruling applied to his character Jacinta under the basis of 'realism'. You can only apply a certain amount of Realism to a turn-oriented, check-based system without canning half/all of the system. Otherwise we'd all be role playing Commoners with 10 HP who never level up and have no skills or dice rolls and the monsters would have only slightly more or less HP than us based on their RR (Realism Rating), while everything we do is heavily regulated by constant DM supervision/
I'm either after a discussion on how Stealth should be properly role played & emoted around Players; or a unanimous agreement on what the Stealth ruling should be.
The way I see Stealth should be roleplayed is only slightly differently from how it's done in NWN.
When I have cover (if required, see Hide in Plain Sight), I set the DC [20]. Each round the opposing roll has to beat the DC [20] in order to succeed.
So if Player A has Hide [20] and Move Silently [1] checks - Even if Player B hears Player A by having Listen [2] as a check, they still need to roll a Spot [20] to pin point Player A and -see- him.
This would be regulated by players, and so the initial DC stays the DC until circumstances change, i.e. no longer in a 100'ft radius, going behind cover (in the case of Hide), etc. Realistic circumstances to re-apply Checks without disadvantaging a high DC or causing grief for the opposing check.
Now tell me what you think.
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The game isn't perfect, the game isn't real, it's full of dragons and other monsters that don't exist, it has magical abilities that don't exist. The game engine has limitations and it's everyone's job to work with what we have. To make it as realistic as possible, based on what we're provided with.
Hiding behind a three inch thick tree with a person isn't hiding, walking into an empty room and standing in the middle of it isn't hiding, walking into a clearing and looting a chest while others are staring at it, isn't hiding. If you can't deem what might be appropriate for a stealthing character in this sense, to be somewhat realistic in the use of the skill, then maybe you shouldn't play one.
Salsa said it best about people thinking stealthing is invisibility, it isn't, base your actions on that. Back in the day, I remember sneaks who would emote constantly, not so players could see, but because in case a DM was around, they wanted to show they had a reason to be stealthing where they are. They'd move their characters along the tree line, not right down the center of the road with no cover, emoting Stays to the tree line, watching over the road, or they'd go down a cave tunnel stays along the wall and in the shadows.
But maybe it's to far of a stretch to actually believe that the "Hide" skill should actually have some "Hiding" involved, other than behind the air. Do what you want, cause as Eoden said, there are to many examples. If I see something off, I'll tell you, as will other DM's more than likely. In the end, we tend to like to give the players the benefit of the doubt and simply say something if we something off.
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Since you have blatantly stated you are pointing fingers…this topic is now locked...
Final ruling is to use stealth provided by the game and to only roll for MS and Hide when a DM asks and then it is up to that individual DM's discretion on how to interrupt those rolls.
RP what you are doing when stealthing and there shouldn't be a problem, if there is one, then a DM will tell you...
End of discussion...
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Rangy Wulf,
I am not disputing a decision of a DM, I'm trying to clarify. What everyone seems to be missing the point on, is this was not a DM event ruling. This was pure, simple interaction with other player/s. As a player, I'm pretty confused at the moment and I'm not enjoying the reach-around being administered.Yes, I am pointing fingers at the one group who should have a clear understanding on how things should be run on Narfell - The DMs. What I'm getting is mixed opinions, and quite frankly that shits me to no end. I've had at least three different opinions on how to role play Stealth from Player Guides/Leads, DMs & players and these differing opinions are scattered across all three groups. I would like to role play Stealth correctly.
I would like to avoid any slaps on the wrist because DM A thinks differently from DM B, C, D & E. But I'm not getting any definitive stance, I'm getting the usual run-off-the-mill stance, "We're the DMs, our decision is final."
But what decision is that, exactly? I count 3 for Stealth Mechanics, 2 for DM Discretion, and 1 Unknown.
And for emphasis: This topic started because of how many different opinions I've heard from PGs/PLs, DM and players on Stealth and the use of it for player interaction with other players outside of DM events.
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Instead of arguing about inconsistency and pointing fingers you should be reading this:
http://www.narfell.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=36207
What you just posted above falls under that so please think before you post. If it happens again, this thread will be locked.
Every DM is different and as STEALTH has NEVER been an issue before as everyone uses what's provided by the game there has been no need to try and have a consistant rule layed out. Also, as it has been stated OVER and OVER again, there are way too many different situations that a set ruling would probably never cover. So USE what the game provides and only do the rolls if a DM asks you to.
As to realism in stealthing. Not many people do this, but you shouldn't go into stealth as your walking on the road…it's the whole thing of turning a corner and hiding behind a group of trees or if in a cave setting using corners to hide...To me, this whole post is silly and is a case of over complicating something that the game engine gives you the ability to use.
Edited to add:
@996173c56b:
In conclusion, I've been in a position involving moderation of rules and the like, so I can relate to DM discretion - but only when necessary, such as grey areas in relation to standardized/uniform procedures. In the end, as a moderation team you should be taking the time to construct a consistent stance on all topics, otherwise it is your own fault for misinformation spread between players by other moderators who have a different approach.
Disclaimer: In no way is this a personal attack on anyone, despite the harsh/blunt approach taken. It is criticism, I suggest you take it constructively instead of throwing around the tub of MSC (Moderator Superiority Complex) and telling me "We're the DMs, stfu or gtfo!".
What you fail to realize is that we are not just a moderation team. We are Dungeon Masters who voluntarily try and make things fun for not only ourselves but for the players as well. The majority of the time, the DM's agree on what should be done and as you can see here, we are pretty consistent in our responses to you. In a PnP situation, what the DM says goes…The same thing applies to Narfell. If you can't handle that, then I don't think this server is right for you.
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OKay I will say it
DM rulings are final and if you have an issue with a DM ruling there are procedures in place for that. Not calling out a DM decision in a public forum. I am not interested in seeing that -ever-.
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It seems after a few posts I need to make another appearance. We'll start by using your own posts, mostly just DrDreadLocks' and Aeolderrs', as weakly construed footing for my own opinion on the matter, so without further adieu:
@a3b8f9b191=MexicanCookie:
It -was- a pretty skinny tree.
First and foremost, I hid behind the larger tree initially and was moving to the smaller tree with the intention to then duck down the ramp nearby. This was cut short by the stance of "You're not behind a tree anymore, therefore I can see you now, despite failing the Spot check."
@a3b8f9b191=DrDreadLock:
I've had this conversation before with multiple players. Do what feels realistic. It's that simple.
It is not that simple as this entire game engine is built on the concept of opposing checks. Realistically, Shadowdancers shouldn't exist because you cannot simply 'disappear' in front of someone if they're staring at you and paying attention to what you're doing. Common sense and realism dictates if you're focusing on something/someone, you're not going to lose them when there is nothing to distract you and no cover to creep around, yet Shadowdancer can pull the fast one on you in this kind of situation. This is not realistic at all.
@a3b8f9b191=DrDreadLock:
A +120 Hide doesn't do much when there is only air to hide behind.
Unfortunately it still comes down to the check, otherwise we wouldn't bother to have any ranks in Hide and the gaming engine would not revolve around a system making constant use of opposing checks and beating DCs. The situation you've provided has no real purpose unless they're trying to Stealth in plain sight without a level of Shadowdancer, then by definition of 3.5e rules, there is a massive penalty (-40ish or something to that extent) designed to negate most stealth characters from successfully hiding (but not prevent them from attempting and potentially succeeding). As I've already stated, Realism has very little place in DnD/NWN. Realism is a cute puppy on a very short tether when it comes to fantasy settings. Sure, it can roam around a little, it receives a lot of unnecessary attention, but it does not own the backyard.
NB: Don't use realism as an excuse for a stance on the situation when it's a fantasy setting, otherwise you should be questioning why you even moderate here.
@a3b8f9b191=aeolderr:
Use the stealth mechanics built into the frickin system. It really isn't that hard to avoid over-complicating matters. If you are using the stealth mechanics and someone sees you, then guess what! They saw you!
Problems: Players who succeed the DC aren't going to know you're in Stealth unless you're emoting it, which can only be seen if they succeed the check anyway. Love how Talk and Whisper aren't shown while in Stealth to players who fail the check; or if they assume your in stealth because you're not running, something which is pretty difficult to determine as I've known people to use Detect Mode to wander around at a walking pace (because it decreases your movement speed).
NB: Before you mention the transparency, that's only on the stealthed character's end. The detector will not see transparency on the stealthed character, they will simply detect them and see a nice, solid character moving at a walking pace. Kudos to all those players who choose to walk instead of run.
@a3b8f9b191=aeolderr:
What I see most of the time when a player decides to actually roll out their stealth instead of just using the mechanics in place…is that the player usually wants to go "you can't see me, cause I'm stealthy!".
I use the actual roll to give players the option to roll against my checks to detect me, while emoting it in Talk to describe what I'm doing in order to achieve a stealthy approach. e.g.
[Crouches up against the stone wall, pressing his back against it. He silently strafes over to tree and ducks behind it, peeking out at Player/PlayerGroup from over the wall]
I choose to do this not only due to the problems previously mentioned in regards to Stealth Mode only showing Talk and Whisper to players who have succeeded the check; but because using the PickPocket Tool or any other ActivateOnUse item will turn the built-in Stealth Mode mechanic off, thus causing most players to think, "Oh, you're not attempting to be stealthy anymore," and creating a small break in IC conversation by OOCly mentioning I'm still attempting to be stealthy, and thus requiring opposing rolls anyway.
Question: Why is it I cannot choose to simply -ignore- the complication that Stealth Mode creates and just have one Stealth check against their Detect check from the Emote Rod; then role play the situation as intended without breaking the smooth flow of role playing?
@a3b8f9b191=aeolderr:
Another complication of rolling stealth instead of just using the mechanic is folks forget they reroll every round. Is it really simpler to spam spot/listen and hide/ms checks rather than use the automated skills?
This is only for Passive Detect Mode. As an Elf, or having Active Detect Mode up, you're making 30 Detection checks against a single Stealth check per round. While I do not want spam, the automated skills are flawed in their own right when it comes to role playing; as mentioned I'd still have to exit Stealth Mode to have any text said show up for players, even a Whisper will go unheard unless they succeed the Detect checks, which if I were making use of Talk, it'd be 'realistic' to pop out of Stealth mode, but if I were to whisper quietly to someone while hiding - They're the only one who 'should' be aware of my presence.
NB: Obviously I'm against the idea of Stealth mode for use of role-playing, however I agree to it's use while in a combat situation as that is the only way to effectively make use of Stealth skills against NPCs.
@a3b8f9b191=aeolderr:
If a situation absolutely calls for a stealth roll, chances are a DM is present. For any other situation, use your head and use common sense. It isn't that hard to do, I promise it isn't.
The problem with using our head and common sense is when we receive a slap on the wrist from a DM for doing exactly that. As mentioned in my initial post, a DM explained to Noxnoctis (on his character Jacinta) he should emote Stealth and make the rolls while around players. Clearly this opinion is the exact opposite of what is being said here. I believe this sets the moderation team up for the next statement.
There is no complication on the player's behalf; most of the confusion and complication is dumped onto us by the lack of consistency within the moderation team as demonstrated within (but certainly not limited to) this topic.
In conclusion, I've been in a position involving moderation of rules and the like, so I can relate to DM discretion - but only when necessary, such as grey areas in relation to standardized/uniform procedures. In the end, as a moderation team you should be taking the time to construct a consistent stance on all topics, otherwise it is your own fault for misinformation spread between players by other moderators who have a different approach.
Disclaimer: In no way is this a personal attack on anyone, despite the harsh/blunt approach taken. It is criticism, I suggest you take it constructively instead of throwing around the tub of MSC (Moderator Superiority Complex) and telling me "We're the DMs, stfu or gtfo!".
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If a DM asked you to make a roll they had a reason, use the systems in place otherwise. There are no hard and fast rules to cover every single situation. My advice is RP and enjoy the game, use the mechanics provided for you by the game, if you are asked by a DM to do something differently then do it that way.
If you have an issue with a DM decision then follow the procedures laid out.
Most situations can be handled in game if folks use common sense and are mature about things.
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The other issue with just using the straight die roll from the emote wand is that it does not take into account any environmental modifiers such as lighting.
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@caf701d2a8=Salsadoom:
Generally the system is the best way. However, I can't begin to guess the number of times I have had to tell people 'stealth is not invisibility'
Very true… But using the mechanics stealth is basically invisibility if you have a high enough check, using the mechanics you can walk past a perfectly lit fire and take someone's greatsword from their very hands without being spotted, which then comes to the point of realism, at that point do you throw off stealth and roll with penalties etc.? Do you throw of stealth and give up because it's completely unrealistic to sneak that way? Or do you use the emote system to try and make it realistic? This is the problem so far as I see it with trying to integrate realism and the role system, where is the line drawn? I mean I can perfectly justify tumbling and flying around a perfectly lit campfire with emoting and still technically not be seen, but is it practical? Common sense is about as vast from person to person as imagination is... What seems completely incomprehensible to one is perfectly logical to another...
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Generally the system is the best way. However, I can't begin to guess the number of times I have had to tell people 'stealth is not invisibility'
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I wasn't overcomplicating things… I was happy to use the stealth mechanism until I was pulled up and told to roll it out and emote to make it realistic... If this isn't the view of the majority of the DM's then I'm happy to go about it that way, it's just confusing, and I must admit frustrating when one DM tells you one thing and another the complete opposite... Which was where we initially ran into the problem in the first place...
Stealth as per the mechanism (Thumbs up) Stealth as per emote and RP (Thumbs up) But can we get it straight throughout the server on which is to be used please?
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Use the stealth mechanics built into the frickin system. It really isn't that hard to avoid over-complicating matters. If you are using the stealth mechanics and someone sees you, then guess what! They saw you!
What I see most of the time when a player decides to actually roll out their stealth instead of just using the mechanics in place…is that the player usually wants to go "you can't see me, cause I'm stealthy!". Another complication of rolling stealth instead of just using the mechanic is folks forget they reroll every round. Is it really simpler to spam spot/listen and hide/ms checks rather than use the automated skills?
If a situation absolutely calls for a stealth roll, chances are a DM is present. For any other situation, use your head and use common sense. It isn't that hard to do, I promise it isn't.
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@5fdeb3a05a=EodenValmer:
Like I say there are 1001 different situations where stealth cover etc can be applied…so as said ask a DM.
And if its against a player...then you need a DM anyways. Unless there is mutually agreed PvP which could include agreed sneak stuff, but I would err on the side of caution and ask a DM.
But to reiterate there are far too many scenarios involving stealth for one blanket ruling to cover.I have no problem with this route, the only issue occurs when there isn't a DM online/available to moderate such things, what's to happen then? Especially if players disagree on what can and can't happen? Should the whole 'encounter' just be postponed until a DM can be found? Should we wing it and hope it find a resolution? I know DM's are often busy with other groups running events, or planning events and the like, just wondering what the best course of action is if a DM isn't available?
As seen by the previous two posts by DM's of Narfell, it seems there isn't even really a consensus between DM's on how stealth should be covered, if the DM's are on the same page it would be a lot easier to regulate/be aware of what should/can happen with regards to stealth…
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@8ba6172250=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
This is the easiest route to take. Why make it difficult, stealth is build into the engine. Its pretty simple, if they detect you, they will see you, if not, they wont.
When in an event or asked by a DM to roll these things, they will give the ultimate ruling on what happens. Otherwise just use stealth mode.
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Like I say there are 1001 different situations where stealth cover etc can be applied…so as said ask a DM.
And if its against a player...then you need a DM anyways. Unless there is mutually agreed PvP which could include agreed sneak stuff, but I would err on the side of caution and ask a DM.
But to reiterate there are far too many scenarios involving stealth for one blanket ruling to cover.
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I don't really think we've come to a concensus regarding a ruling on this sort of thing, seeing as I was the one Vitiosus was trying to hide from and also the one who had the concept of realism in stealth explained to, I tried to pass that concept on to Vitiosus, the problem is, as Vitiosus said, we don't have a definate ruling, some DM's think one way, others think another, and more often than not PC's think completely different to both of the aforementioned.
Personally the way I've come to think of stealthing, is that if you try and stealth through an open area without cover, in decent lighting, it's like trying to hide without cover all over again, and as such takes a -40 penalty on the check (Could be -20 I'm not 100% on that) But essentially the way I think is if I'm going somewhere I can potentially be seen it's like rolling a new hide check each round with any given penalties, using stealth while in cover then wandering into the open for instance wouldn't use the same check as it was made with said cover and now you're wandering in the open.
Having said that, taking into account situational differences, such as a character trying to stealth behind someone's back (Literally) wouldn't draw attention at all unless you were to fail on your oppose Move Silently check, or if the character has eyes in the back of their head.
The problem with not having a set ruling on it, is people's use of common sense varies greatly from other peoples, (As I've found out recently) and leaves it open to a lot of disagreement on the issue. So if we could get a definitive and linear ruling on this it would be much appreciated.
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@b927ea716a=SummonerX:
Why not just use stealth mode instead of rolling unless asked by a DM? If you don't wanna be seen and wanna be sneaky, that's what stealth mode is for.
QFT.
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Hear hear!
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Actually its DnD and what’s rule number 1?
DM decision is final…question answered.Or in other words if in doubt ask a DM there are far too many possible situations to cover here. Trust me I have heard some fairly awesome reasoning behind completely ridiculous uses of various skills, but the crux is, its still bollox. So use some common sense and if a DM disagrees then that’s that.
