3. Norwick: Design Phase

Norwick: Design Phase

  • T

    @4beddac164=Fraoch:

    In order to move the increasingly smaller server population together, could avoid rebuilding it.

    Hmm…an interesting thought....The Ruins of Norwick, inhabited by a mixture of goblins and undead from the crypts, and beyond that a mixture of bugbear soldiers and goblins, and beyond that even more bugbears and saurials. It could add an interesting new fly to the mixture, with perhaps the Keep and Temple of Kelemvor standing as a new outpost against the woods and its inhabitants. Definitely food for thought.


  • In order to move the increasingly smaller server population together, could avoid rebuilding it.


  • heh, great minds think alike… from page 1:

    @b1e4e4de6f=Clan:

    Anyone ever watch Deadwood on HBO?

    IMO, that is exactly what i want Norwick to be like, all things being equal.

    @b1e4e4de6f=strepsiades:

    Speaking as someone who only visits, Norwick has long seemed to me like Deadwood in the HBO series.

    I also think that Nightsblood is right about getting crowds in the inn - if you want it to be full, you need to put it somewhere that will have a lot of traffic.

  • S

    Speaking as someone who only visits, Norwick has long seemed to me like Deadwood in the HBO series.

    I also think that Nightsblood is right about getting crowds in the inn - if you want it to be full, you need to put it somewhere that will have a lot of traffic.

  • N

    Much as I like the biergarten idea all it really is, is the 'old' campfire which doesn't really bring life and patronage to the inn per se.
    (Don't get me wrong, I loved the old southfire. It was my favourite place to gather).

    The only way to ensure patronage of the inn is to have it act as a gatehouse (a choke point where people must pass through to enter the Rawlins). The ground floor could be the passage to the Gates overlooked by a balcony which would be the tavern part of the inn proper. These could be separated by reinforced doors (transitions) in times of trouble. Like the stage area of The Peltarch theatre you can see the stage but are seperate from it without transitioning.

    The idea is that folks would sit on the balcony with drinks watching the comings and goings through the Rawlins and Norwick gates. If they saw something of interest pass beneath a quick word would be enough to verify or arrange accompanyment. A short transition down could then see them join up and head out.

    It also means archers have a killing zone from the balcony covering both the gate to the Rawlins and the Gate to Norwick yet are protected from enemy fire from the Rawlins itself.

    Seperate entrances (from the main gates) mean they can retreat into Norwick (or maybe even the ramparts if needed to fire into the Rawlins) if the balcony is stormed.

    The only drawback would be that they can't actually see what's happening in Norwick or the Rawlins…which is realistic.


  • i think all of this input is really valuable as Lucid, Damien, myself and a few others sit down IC (as Scutum mentioned) to continue planning this all out. we've made some decisions already which you'll see, but there have been some other really good ideas here as well.


  • If the town (and by this I mean mostly Dwin and Lucid IC) want to restrict access to the Rawlins from the pass, I think it is their perogative to do so. Now, if we as a development community want to guarantee access to the Rawlins for all players, we can do that… just differently. Say, a winding (and much more dangerous) trail from the old Featherflight area (or somewhere nearby) to someplace on the graveyard map, or the far east wood or something. If Norwick sees the Rawlins as a natural resource that is to be coveted, I would expect them to take measures to put themselves into a position where access to that resource is controlled.

    I like the biergarten idea (provided NPC count is low).

    I imagine most towns have some black market of one kind or another. I just think that who controlls that market varies from town to town. If Fenz or the Sails or Nico control it in Peltarch, maybe they have to work with the Dolvaks in Norwick, or with Horgan (or whomever) in the Camp, etc. It's a question of who gets their cut. The fun of Peltarch is trying to muscle out or merge with the competition, wheras in Norwick maybe some fun plots could be run trying to get a toehold there (as I think one group was doing).


  • Spellweaver is located near Norwick because junior wizards level faster by killing goblins using their mephits than they do sitting in a library with a textbook. 🙂

    Please keep a route around Norwick, maybe have a transition trigger 'twisted forrest paths' for druids or rangers or people to go from north to south. If you want security, maybe put an IC guard in an intermediate 1x1 clearing that's hostile to anyone not bearing a 'Loved by the Druid!' token if you're more mellow - make it a 'hated by the druid' token and keep the Guardian as neutral to most.

    That way druids and their mates can pass unmolested and the Spirit of the Rawlins can feast on the unwary. It would also maybe give the druids more of a feeling of mysticism and control/stewardship of the more wild areas.

    I'd also suggest making the deeper Rawlins map more twisty and tortuous. It might be nice to have more of a cramped, constricted feel with occasional larger clearings. If the base map is some multiply connected clearings, with a few placeable but archer-transparent thorny barricades - it could be interesting to fight through. Also, a combination of tile and placeable means a DM could destroy some barricades, and spawn new ones to create a radically different path through the woods.

    I love the idea of an outdoor garden for the boarshead. Hopefully we can rename it 'Corde's Head' informally when we catch him. 🙂

  • M

    At some point, we will adding local regional messaging, so people in an Inn would hear commotion outside, but I agree.

    Meeting spots in Narfell tend to center in arears where players are bound to cross.


  • thats a great idea about the biergarten


  • Actually, if you want people to use the Boarshead, make it a Biergarten - i.e., a place that serves outdoors (preferably with a covered area, but with no walls).

    People tend to not use indoor taverns because a war could be happening outside and you would never know - and you tend to miss all sorts of good opportunities to adventure as people happen by.

  • C

    Boarshead Inn
    Inns were traditionally small resting spots for travelers on long roads. From there, people would set up services to offer the passing travelers, eventually settling down and building homes and shops around the said Inn. Basically, inns are the heart of a town.

    While the Boarshead is rather centered in Norwick, perhaps if it were farther South and closer to the action, people would frequent it more? If possible, extending the Southern Gate area of Norwick and moving the Boarshead just off the road on the Southern Gate area might entice more people to hang out there.

    Also, I know the idea is to make it look more lively and such, but the amount of NPCs in the Boarshead is ridiculous. They all seem to crowd around in a large bunch, and make it difficult to navigate and find people. Sure, that's more realistic… But not as appealing. Something more open, with perhaps a fighting pit and performance stage located in it would be more aesthetically pleasing? The pit would be excellent for boxing and such, and a stage would be ideal for holding small concerts and things of the sort. Maybe for a small fee, people can hold performances there? It might be a nice way to drag more people into the inn.

    Other
    I'll have to second Vortex's idea on the Heyokarr Longhouse. When I said Norwick was a barbarian town, I did not mean it is run by barbarians, or uncivilized or barbaric. I simply meant that in its past, it has been the home or "base," if you will, of many barbarians.

    It would be interesting to see the influence of the Nars Tribes on Norwick, especially as far as trade and diplomacy go.


  • @33457e27aa=the_reivax:

    • Stone walls north and south of the city, extended east and west to its natural borders.

    ICly, stone walls (at least, of the sort Pelt has) are probably too expensive a proposition for recently-burned Norwick. OOCly, they don't really fit the Norwick feel.

    @33457e27aa=the_reivax:

    • Mages that have been studying at the Keep and now find openings in the job market, in particular as guards of Norwick. (imagine what a well placed fireball or a few magic missiles would have done to help fend off the bugbears or at least make them take a second thought before attempting to wage battle against Norwick, let's not give them any re pause on put up NPC mages in the ranks of the guard).

    I always felt locating Spellweaver in Norwick didn't make a lot of sense thematically; it seems like a place that would be better suited for Pelt or Jiyyd. What refined, cultivated, intellectual wizard is going to want to hang around a brawling mudpit like Norwick? If I was studying at Spellweaver, as soon as I got my degree it'd be off to the big city with the better job opportunities and higher standard of living.

    @33457e27aa=the_reivax:

    • Get rid of any possible "meeting" spots outside of the boars head (like those benches around the well; always made me wonder why people were there, to look up the skirts of women as they drew water, or was it really relaxing to sit and stare at a well? shrug) and people WILL go there to chat and speak with each other.

    Maybe if this were a real town they would, but as it is a game I can say from long experience that PCs will happily squat in the mud in the midst of a torrential rainstorm, with wandering DMs occasionally slapping weather effects on them, rather than go inside to a nice comfy inn with ale and warm fires where they might miss something or someone interesting happening along. Players are always going to congregate in the spots that maximize their chance of finding adventure or conversation. Inns, being enclosed and off the paths of travel and with no mechanically compelling reason to be regularly entered, are not one of those places.

    @33457e27aa=the_reivax:

    • As for trade, I haven't heard anyone say LUMBER! snip They can also protect those great woods that deserve protecting, or if they are NE druids they can mark every single tree in the wood for extermination, whatever, I don't care, I just don't want to see this as a big hassle.

    Let's just say the issue of Norwick, timbering, and the druids is something that has a LOT of in-game history and negotiation behind it. Sometimes negotiation via axe and lightning strike.

    -Lagermane

  • T

    Ok here's my thoughts. The presence of the Keep over the decades has had to have some influence on its people. Either the existing generation has become more educated or the next generation of its people are a little bit more educated, either way this should be reflected in the design of the town and the attitudes of its people:

    • Stone walls north and south of the city, extended east and west to its natural borders.
    • Mages that have been studying at the Keep and now find openings in the job market, in particular as guards of Norwick. (imagine what a well placed fireball or a few magic missiles would have done to help fend off the bugbears or at least make them take a second thought before attempting to wage battle against Norwick, let's not give them any re pause on put up NPC mages in the ranks of the guard).
    • Frago is out of business. Spellweaver Keep pops in with a new magic shop of its own, selling some of the same wares that Frago was selling, but also some of its own unique brand of items. Perhaps part of its new selection of items includes these barbarian specific designs.
    • The second-hand store finds a true place in Norwick by taking over the general store duties that Praeth once held.
    • A "barbarian memorial" is erected to symbolize the roots that Norwick was built on, and similarily, a new day of celebration is created and a new memorial erected to symbolize the retaking of Norwick.
    • New graves of honour are erected for Frago and Praeth in the Norwick Graveyard to help bring their spirits to rest.
    • Remove the south camp all together
    • Trade the place of the Boar's Head with that of the Crafter's Union, along the road to the south. Inside the Boar's Head make some "specialty meals" like the "chicken suppers" and what not that exist at the Keep so people go inside and eat crap. Perhaps those "noodles" and "noodle" recipes from awhile back could be incorporated in some way.
    • Get rid of any possible "meeting" spots outside of the boars head (like those benches around the well; always made me wonder why people were there, to look up the skirts of women as they drew water, or was it really relaxing to sit and stare at a well? shrug) and people WILL go there to chat and speak with each other.
    • As for trade, I haven't heard anyone say LUMBER! HELLO! Norwick is a HUGE lumberjack town. It's on the edge of one of the largest forests in Narfell, if not Faerun alone (Hell, if a forest of that side existed this side of the world it would be a prime source for wood). It's primary source of income is the wood it delivers to Peltarch to be sent down river on ship to other parts of Faerun, not to mention to the rest of Narfell. Also, there are mines hidden deep in the woods, coveted by the goblins and bugbears and thus not easily accessible, but nonetheless present and a place for adventurers to go to, or a place for a mining company to send out it's men with a group of adventurer's that protect them while they mine for the day. (ie. repeatable quests). I see the mines in these woods not so much as metal mines, but as gem mines, but that's just me. Furthermore, the depth of these woods is a huge opportunity for exploration and attracts adventurers from around the globe, especially if they know that a town has spring up right near it to help with their supply demands. So as far as income and trade goes I don't think the town has a problem. Oh if the druids have a problem about the lumberjack thing and they want to participate in it, then they should realize that the town likely is not going to "strip mine" the place, but people still need resources to live. At best the druids might be able to help by "marking" those trees that can or can't be cut down for industrial purposes. It seems a fair compromise in my eyes. In this instance, the druids can keep the forest alive by marking those trees that are dead or dying, or those trees that are simply not in a good place for growth, etc. They can also protect those great woods that deserve protecting, or if they are NE druids they can mark every single tree in the wood for extermination, whatever, I don't care, I just don't want to see this as a big hassle. Anyways I'm rambling right now.
    • I like the Barbarian-item thing. And Sethan made some excellent points that I would support, though I've always preferred the open market of Norwick - I hate transitioning to shop, it's just always been a pet peave of mine. Perhaps a shop could be setup - an actual physical building - but the merchant would still be outside during the day and move inside at night, or if it rains, but come out if the weather is sunny.
    • I support the idea of a fighting arena/pit in Norwick but make it mage duel friendly as well. Thanks. Oh and have the rules posted for it as well, including specific magic rules if necessary for mage duels.
    • As far as Boarshead goes, it's always seemed a bit crowded with NPCs for my taste. While this is normally fine, it would be nice to have more room for PCs to maneuver and sit.
    • Those are my ideas, hope you like them.

  • Just to jump in to give a note to some info being stated here…Pelt does have a rather thriving, and rather long running, black market to my knowledge.


  • I agree with dwin. The way we run the town is exactly that, more an old west sheriff style thing.

    And to be completely honest, I've never seen any barbarian aspect of norwick since I've played. Its always appeared to be a rough border town. Not a barbarian tribe kinda town.


  • Anyone ever watch Deadwood on HBO?

    IMO, that is exactly what i want Norwick to be like, all things being equal.


  • Playing devil's advocate to some points brought up, and bringing up some of my own:

    • I don't think the current layout of the Boarshead has much to do with its disuse. Frankly the Boarshead has never gotten a lot of use ever; people preferred to sit around the south fire by the gate. (I remember Kerby getting frustrated and zapping people with ray of frost to simulate cold and convince them to move indoors.) Simply put, unless they want to be undisturbed, people are going to migrate to a 'traffic/action hub,' that is, somewhere that they can see/meet people coming through the town and spot/be tagged for the DM event of the night. Nobody's going to hang out in an inn, no matter how you appoint it, if doing so means they're going to miss the action and conversation outside.

    If you want the Boarshead to get any use, you are going to have to route traffic through it somehow or give people a real compelling reason to hang out in it.

    *WRT circling around the town: This was always sort of meta, given that the barriers are composed of TREES. I don't think realistically you're going to be able to seal off the ability of people or creatures to leave the Rawlins except through Norwick. From a technical, this-is-a-video-game standpoint you can, but it makes no coherent sense whatsoever.

    It also limits the ability of the DMs and players to run certain plots by basically making access to the woods dependant on being friendly to Norwick. (Or taking the graveyard route, if that's still around).

    *Norwick always struck me as less of a barbarian town than a mining camp, full of tenderfeet, grizzled veterans, merchants out to make a buck on the rush, harried and sometimes corrupt lawmen trying to keep order (and not being too careful about it). If this is a councillor's ship, where are the barbarians? I look at the NPCs Norwick's had and see drunken dwarves, prim elven general store merchants, gnomish junk dealers, shady secondhand sellers, jovial clerics of generic, Jandor the wandering wastrel… and not a single damn barbarian worth the name who wasn't a PC.

    I would suggest looking up material on the old mining camps and seeing what the prominent town fixtures were. A brothel would probably do a booming business. So would a laundry.

    *WRT the open air market: I think we should keep one or two of them outside, but really the general store, etc should be indoors.

    -Lagermane

  • M

    I'd like to point out that barbarians dont have towns. A town is a form of civilization, while barbarism, by definition, is a lack of civilization.

    The more structured and formalized the town, the less barbaric it becomes. Not saying that is right or wrong, but barbarian is alot more than just a class definition.


  • er…

    ...lets not assume that there isnt already some kind of organized crime element in place that might just be happy to not have any competition....