Norwick: Design Phase
-
Spellweaver is located near Norwick because junior wizards level faster by killing goblins using their mephits than they do sitting in a library with a textbook.
Please keep a route around Norwick, maybe have a transition trigger 'twisted forrest paths' for druids or rangers or people to go from north to south. If you want security, maybe put an IC guard in an intermediate 1x1 clearing that's hostile to anyone not bearing a 'Loved by the Druid!' token if you're more mellow - make it a 'hated by the druid' token and keep the Guardian as neutral to most.
That way druids and their mates can pass unmolested and the Spirit of the Rawlins can feast on the unwary. It would also maybe give the druids more of a feeling of mysticism and control/stewardship of the more wild areas.
I'd also suggest making the deeper Rawlins map more twisty and tortuous. It might be nice to have more of a cramped, constricted feel with occasional larger clearings. If the base map is some multiply connected clearings, with a few placeable but archer-transparent thorny barricades - it could be interesting to fight through. Also, a combination of tile and placeable means a DM could destroy some barricades, and spawn new ones to create a radically different path through the woods.
I love the idea of an outdoor garden for the boarshead. Hopefully we can rename it 'Corde's Head' informally when we catch him.
-
At some point, we will adding local regional messaging, so people in an Inn would hear commotion outside, but I agree.
Meeting spots in Narfell tend to center in arears where players are bound to cross.
-
thats a great idea about the biergarten
-
Actually, if you want people to use the Boarshead, make it a Biergarten - i.e., a place that serves outdoors (preferably with a covered area, but with no walls).
People tend to not use indoor taverns because a war could be happening outside and you would never know - and you tend to miss all sorts of good opportunities to adventure as people happen by.
-
Boarshead Inn
Inns were traditionally small resting spots for travelers on long roads. From there, people would set up services to offer the passing travelers, eventually settling down and building homes and shops around the said Inn. Basically, inns are the heart of a town.While the Boarshead is rather centered in Norwick, perhaps if it were farther South and closer to the action, people would frequent it more? If possible, extending the Southern Gate area of Norwick and moving the Boarshead just off the road on the Southern Gate area might entice more people to hang out there.
Also, I know the idea is to make it look more lively and such, but the amount of NPCs in the Boarshead is ridiculous. They all seem to crowd around in a large bunch, and make it difficult to navigate and find people. Sure, that's more realistic… But not as appealing. Something more open, with perhaps a fighting pit and performance stage located in it would be more aesthetically pleasing? The pit would be excellent for boxing and such, and a stage would be ideal for holding small concerts and things of the sort. Maybe for a small fee, people can hold performances there? It might be a nice way to drag more people into the inn.
Other
I'll have to second Vortex's idea on the Heyokarr Longhouse. When I said Norwick was a barbarian town, I did not mean it is run by barbarians, or uncivilized or barbaric. I simply meant that in its past, it has been the home or "base," if you will, of many barbarians.It would be interesting to see the influence of the Nars Tribes on Norwick, especially as far as trade and diplomacy go.
-
@33457e27aa=the_reivax:
- Stone walls north and south of the city, extended east and west to its natural borders.
ICly, stone walls (at least, of the sort Pelt has) are probably too expensive a proposition for recently-burned Norwick. OOCly, they don't really fit the Norwick feel.
@33457e27aa=the_reivax:
- Mages that have been studying at the Keep and now find openings in the job market, in particular as guards of Norwick. (imagine what a well placed fireball or a few magic missiles would have done to help fend off the bugbears or at least make them take a second thought before attempting to wage battle against Norwick, let's not give them any re pause on put up NPC mages in the ranks of the guard).
I always felt locating Spellweaver in Norwick didn't make a lot of sense thematically; it seems like a place that would be better suited for Pelt or Jiyyd. What refined, cultivated, intellectual wizard is going to want to hang around a brawling mudpit like Norwick? If I was studying at Spellweaver, as soon as I got my degree it'd be off to the big city with the better job opportunities and higher standard of living.
@33457e27aa=the_reivax:
- Get rid of any possible "meeting" spots outside of the boars head (like those benches around the well; always made me wonder why people were there, to look up the skirts of women as they drew water, or was it really relaxing to sit and stare at a well? shrug) and people WILL go there to chat and speak with each other.
Maybe if this were a real town they would, but as it is a game I can say from long experience that PCs will happily squat in the mud in the midst of a torrential rainstorm, with wandering DMs occasionally slapping weather effects on them, rather than go inside to a nice comfy inn with ale and warm fires where they might miss something or someone interesting happening along. Players are always going to congregate in the spots that maximize their chance of finding adventure or conversation. Inns, being enclosed and off the paths of travel and with no mechanically compelling reason to be regularly entered, are not one of those places.
@33457e27aa=the_reivax:
- As for trade, I haven't heard anyone say LUMBER! snip They can also protect those great woods that deserve protecting, or if they are NE druids they can mark every single tree in the wood for extermination, whatever, I don't care, I just don't want to see this as a big hassle.
Let's just say the issue of Norwick, timbering, and the druids is something that has a LOT of in-game history and negotiation behind it. Sometimes negotiation via axe and lightning strike.
-Lagermane
-
Ok here's my thoughts. The presence of the Keep over the decades has had to have some influence on its people. Either the existing generation has become more educated or the next generation of its people are a little bit more educated, either way this should be reflected in the design of the town and the attitudes of its people:
- Stone walls north and south of the city, extended east and west to its natural borders.
- Mages that have been studying at the Keep and now find openings in the job market, in particular as guards of Norwick. (imagine what a well placed fireball or a few magic missiles would have done to help fend off the bugbears or at least make them take a second thought before attempting to wage battle against Norwick, let's not give them any re pause on put up NPC mages in the ranks of the guard).
- Frago is out of business. Spellweaver Keep pops in with a new magic shop of its own, selling some of the same wares that Frago was selling, but also some of its own unique brand of items. Perhaps part of its new selection of items includes these barbarian specific designs.
- The second-hand store finds a true place in Norwick by taking over the general store duties that Praeth once held.
- A "barbarian memorial" is erected to symbolize the roots that Norwick was built on, and similarily, a new day of celebration is created and a new memorial erected to symbolize the retaking of Norwick.
- New graves of honour are erected for Frago and Praeth in the Norwick Graveyard to help bring their spirits to rest.
- Remove the south camp all together
- Trade the place of the Boar's Head with that of the Crafter's Union, along the road to the south. Inside the Boar's Head make some "specialty meals" like the "chicken suppers" and what not that exist at the Keep so people go inside and eat crap. Perhaps those "noodles" and "noodle" recipes from awhile back could be incorporated in some way.
- Get rid of any possible "meeting" spots outside of the boars head (like those benches around the well; always made me wonder why people were there, to look up the skirts of women as they drew water, or was it really relaxing to sit and stare at a well? shrug) and people WILL go there to chat and speak with each other.
- As for trade, I haven't heard anyone say LUMBER! HELLO! Norwick is a HUGE lumberjack town. It's on the edge of one of the largest forests in Narfell, if not Faerun alone (Hell, if a forest of that side existed this side of the world it would be a prime source for wood). It's primary source of income is the wood it delivers to Peltarch to be sent down river on ship to other parts of Faerun, not to mention to the rest of Narfell. Also, there are mines hidden deep in the woods, coveted by the goblins and bugbears and thus not easily accessible, but nonetheless present and a place for adventurers to go to, or a place for a mining company to send out it's men with a group of adventurer's that protect them while they mine for the day. (ie. repeatable quests). I see the mines in these woods not so much as metal mines, but as gem mines, but that's just me. Furthermore, the depth of these woods is a huge opportunity for exploration and attracts adventurers from around the globe, especially if they know that a town has spring up right near it to help with their supply demands. So as far as income and trade goes I don't think the town has a problem. Oh if the druids have a problem about the lumberjack thing and they want to participate in it, then they should realize that the town likely is not going to "strip mine" the place, but people still need resources to live. At best the druids might be able to help by "marking" those trees that can or can't be cut down for industrial purposes. It seems a fair compromise in my eyes. In this instance, the druids can keep the forest alive by marking those trees that are dead or dying, or those trees that are simply not in a good place for growth, etc. They can also protect those great woods that deserve protecting, or if they are NE druids they can mark every single tree in the wood for extermination, whatever, I don't care, I just don't want to see this as a big hassle. Anyways I'm rambling right now.
- I like the Barbarian-item thing. And Sethan made some excellent points that I would support, though I've always preferred the open market of Norwick - I hate transitioning to shop, it's just always been a pet peave of mine. Perhaps a shop could be setup - an actual physical building - but the merchant would still be outside during the day and move inside at night, or if it rains, but come out if the weather is sunny.
- I support the idea of a fighting arena/pit in Norwick but make it mage duel friendly as well. Thanks. Oh and have the rules posted for it as well, including specific magic rules if necessary for mage duels.
- As far as Boarshead goes, it's always seemed a bit crowded with NPCs for my taste. While this is normally fine, it would be nice to have more room for PCs to maneuver and sit.
- Those are my ideas, hope you like them.
-
Just to jump in to give a note to some info being stated here…Pelt does have a rather thriving, and rather long running, black market to my knowledge.
-
I agree with dwin. The way we run the town is exactly that, more an old west sheriff style thing.
And to be completely honest, I've never seen any barbarian aspect of norwick since I've played. Its always appeared to be a rough border town. Not a barbarian tribe kinda town.
-
Anyone ever watch Deadwood on HBO?
IMO, that is exactly what i want Norwick to be like, all things being equal.
-
Playing devil's advocate to some points brought up, and bringing up some of my own:
- I don't think the current layout of the Boarshead has much to do with its disuse. Frankly the Boarshead has never gotten a lot of use ever; people preferred to sit around the south fire by the gate. (I remember Kerby getting frustrated and zapping people with ray of frost to simulate cold and convince them to move indoors.) Simply put, unless they want to be undisturbed, people are going to migrate to a 'traffic/action hub,' that is, somewhere that they can see/meet people coming through the town and spot/be tagged for the DM event of the night. Nobody's going to hang out in an inn, no matter how you appoint it, if doing so means they're going to miss the action and conversation outside.
If you want the Boarshead to get any use, you are going to have to route traffic through it somehow or give people a real compelling reason to hang out in it.
*WRT circling around the town: This was always sort of meta, given that the barriers are composed of TREES. I don't think realistically you're going to be able to seal off the ability of people or creatures to leave the Rawlins except through Norwick. From a technical, this-is-a-video-game standpoint you can, but it makes no coherent sense whatsoever.
It also limits the ability of the DMs and players to run certain plots by basically making access to the woods dependant on being friendly to Norwick. (Or taking the graveyard route, if that's still around).
*Norwick always struck me as less of a barbarian town than a mining camp, full of tenderfeet, grizzled veterans, merchants out to make a buck on the rush, harried and sometimes corrupt lawmen trying to keep order (and not being too careful about it). If this is a councillor's ship, where are the barbarians? I look at the NPCs Norwick's had and see drunken dwarves, prim elven general store merchants, gnomish junk dealers, shady secondhand sellers, jovial clerics of generic, Jandor the wandering wastrel… and not a single damn barbarian worth the name who wasn't a PC.
I would suggest looking up material on the old mining camps and seeing what the prominent town fixtures were. A brothel would probably do a booming business. So would a laundry.
*WRT the open air market: I think we should keep one or two of them outside, but really the general store, etc should be indoors.
-Lagermane
-
I'd like to point out that barbarians dont have towns. A town is a form of civilization, while barbarism, by definition, is a lack of civilization.
The more structured and formalized the town, the less barbaric it becomes. Not saying that is right or wrong, but barbarian is alot more than just a class definition.
-
er…
...lets not assume that there isnt already some kind of organized crime element in place that might just be happy to not have any competition....
-
@b6281c8244=Vortext:
…to replace Kyra who is now but a ghost of a memory.
Kyra was actually active in some plots that were brought to an abrupt end a couple months ago. Of course her disappearance during the invasion would suggest she was killed (this is entirely guessing though). Of course Alora and Gruff are still alive.
The second-hand goods never really sold very well but that shop would be a perfect place for the "gray-market" stuff someone was talking about before. The collection of bardic stuff outside of Peltarch was also kind of nice. That place has lots of RP history that is a nice springboard for dm's in relation to roguish events.
Getting rid of it would kind of put a damper on small rogue events in or around Norwick unless it was an entirely new group moving in.
On the other hand, assuming Alora didn't have enough money for a whole new shop she could always hang out in a back room of the boarshead to sell stuff or even behind/next to the boarshed instead of having a whole shop.
-
Lucid, Dwin, and myself have all been brainstorming ideas for the rebuilding of Norwick.
I am VERY impressed at many of the ideas above and it has given me much to think about before I meet with Dwin and Lucid next to discuss further steps.
WTG guys, keep the great comments coming.
-
I like the indoor flea market Idea. I am sure it is coming, but I would like to see more Dwin/Lucy influence on the rebuilding IC as they are pretty much running the town. I would imagine Dwin will be building some nicely fortified walls and all that kind of cool good stuff :idea:
-
I would like to see the Heyokarr push for a classic Longhouse where tribal councils and happenings could be conducted as well as a slightly looser drinking area.
The Heyokarr tribe is very tied to Norwick and while it may not be a barbarian town anymore I would still expect them to have a presence/influence. This would include the occassional trade meet with other tribes arriivng to the frontier town for a day of bartering and sale and trade. The Featherflights would be an archers dream day, the Red Tigers for runic weapons.
In the same fashion I am fairly sure the sisterhood would like to see about opening theior own shop within the town, perhaps to replace Kyra who is now but a ghost of a memory.
-
@513b97ebf9:
- what is the purpose of the city?
I would call it a "town" rather than a city - it isn't a Peltarch (and shouldn't be). That said, it serves several purposes.
-
Gateway to the Rawlins. For 90+% of those going to the Rawlins, you're going through (or immediately around) Norwick, both coming and going. That makes it the logical jumping off place for Rawlins-related trade (arrows +1 vs. goblins, bugbears (or on the black market, saurials), potions and scrolls to resist the most common spells used by their casters, etc.), and buying items coming back from the Rawlins.
-
Frontier town. Even moreso than Jiyyd, Norwick is a frontier town. While both towns have their "wild" areas surrounding them, Norwick has more and deeper, and more importantly, the near Rawlins are accessible to lower level characters than the areas around Jiyyd - which means they see more traffic.
-
Trading waypoint. Norwick is the gateway to the overland route to the south. As such, it should see a variety of trade goods and caravans headed in both directions. Given the large transient population of caravaniers this would create, the town is even more the "Frontier Town."
-
Gray Market. Jiyyd is too small to have much of a Black Market, and while Peltarch must have one, Peltarch laws make trading in it risky. Oscura of course, should be the ultimate city for Black Market goods - but Norwick should be a not-too-distant second. As a trade hub, and given their government, it would be the ideal place to move goods that were not entirely legal elsewhere.
@513b97ebf9:
- what kind of people live in the city?
Many types:
-
The descendants of the Nars Barbarians, now a good deal more civilized.
-
Traders and merchants who decided to settle at this end of the route, or who make their living off the adventurers going into the Rawlins.
-
Farmers and ranchers (in the South Valley).
-
Wizards who study at Spellweaver Keep but do not live there.
-
Adventurers who make their living off the Rawlins.
@513b97ebf9:
- how does the city sustain itself economically?
Serving so many functions, the town should be larger and have more upscale businesses (in a frontier-town kind of way) than simple farming and ranching could support. Taxes from trade (gray market goods are fine, so long as the taxes are paid) would be a large portion of the revenues, as would adventurers spending loot obtained in the Rawlins.
As the Headquarters of the Crafter's Union, there should be a mechanism for Norwick-homed (or perhaps Crafters Union members only) crafters to sell low-end crafted goods to a shop there (in the same way as Cera in the Gypsy Camp buys spider eyes - in a limited number, at slightly below market rates, once per reset). The shop would then re-sell those crafted goods - things that are not available elsewhere, except directly from a crafter. Of course, for high-end or masterwork items, it would still be necessary to contact a crafter directly.
@513b97ebf9:
- how do the people eat?
Farms in the South Valley, plus game hunted from the Rawlins, plus imported specialty foods.
@513b97ebf9:
- how many people are there?
A core population perhaps 2 to 3 times the size of Jiyyd, plus a much larger transient population of traders and adventurers. As a frontier town, the number of adventurers and retired adventurers (many of whom might have retired after losing limbs, acquiring some other permanent disability, or dying one too many times) should be higher than normal.
@513b97ebf9:
- what kind of trade do they have with other cities?
Peltarch: Trade with Peltarch would be mostly indirect, with Norwick acting as a hub for goods coming from (and going to) the southern overland route. The only exception to this would be goods that come from the Rawlins and are not available elsewhere (such as bugbear weaponry). IMO, Norwick should try to find a way to keep bugbear weaponry from being directly sold in Peltarch (so that Norwick Merchants can sell it to Peltarch merchants in bulk, and Norwick can tax the sale).
Oscura: Trade with Oscura would be mostly indirect, with the possible exceptions of supplemental foodstuffs (and bugbear weaponry) coming from Norwick to Oscura, and Gray Market goods going from Oscura to Norwick. Jiyyd could trade food to Oscura, but might not - Norwickians would probably have no such compunctions.
The Gypsy Camp and Jiyyd: Norwick would probably not have much trade with either, except for items that are unique to one side or the other.
With Norwick deriving so much of its income from trade, efforts would be made to ensure that trade goods stopped (and were taxed) there, rather than bypassed the town. This might create opportunities for smugglers as well…
@513b97ebf9:
- what kind of military setup defends the city?
Due to the enormous amount of goblin and bugbear attacks on the town, Norwick should have a large military presence, designed mostly around static defenses pointed south. The southern wall should be upgraded to stone with a parapet, and there should be no access to the town for creatures coming from the south other than through the south gate (possibly leave the graveyard access open). Sorry druids, but if the southern defenses are upgraded and the goblins can simply walk around the wall to attack the much weaker north gate, then the town has a problem.
@513b97ebf9:
- how much space should the city take up?
The current map size is good, though Dwin has a point about the permanent buildings being in a more compact area.
What I'd like to see is the Great Hall and militia barracks enclosed in their own wall as now, and then the other permanent buildings clustered tightly around that wall - with much of the remainder of the space being taken up by tents and camps for the large transient population. The transients might even have merchants among them that would change out from time to time.
Agreed that the Boarshead should be much more of a 'rowdy' bar - and it would make sense for the Jiyyd arena to be moved to Norwick - perhaps even with betting, and 'take on the local champion' matches (against even bugbears, goblins and saurials (or… undead from the graveyard...) if safe conducts could be arranged. Likewise, a brothel would fit much better in Norwick than Jiyyd.
Chrispo's comments about Barbarian items are well-taken, and there should be such available for sale in Norwick... even if they have to be looted from the crypts
-
I really disagree with the idea that Norwick is a "barbarian" town, both from the point of view of its politics and that it would favor items for a particular class of adventurer as a result.
True, Norwick was a "barbaric" town in its inception (how many arent?) but I would argue that under the reigns of Rando, Milshot, Lucid (and briefly Dwin
) it has been highly organized and anything but barbaric.I think that the merchants should go indoors both from a lag perspective as well as a realistic standpoint. They can ll be inside one big barn for all I care, like an indoor flea market. I think that would make sense.
If one of the merchants in that indoor market were to cater more to Adventurers with the class of 'Barbarian', then I think that makes sense too. That one is up to May. (and since Maythor Troff is a crafting barbarian himself, maybe there's some hope there!)
-
The way I see it, Norwick has always been a fortified town at the edge of the woods, under constant threat of goblins and bugbears, as well as undead and whatever else. It hasn't been a pure barbarian town for a while. What I would like to see is Norwick as a kind of castle. Walled, with towers, and the buildings inside closely packed together to save space, with a central courtyart. The Great Hall and Barracks would be behind another set of walls to form a sort of keep. Farms and the like would be good to place in the "south valley".
