Ooc: What do you want to see in Arnath
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Once the new city and new spawns get in, i wouldn't mind seeing arnath become almost a "world within a world" where its mostly estranged from teh surface. Sure, some will still go to both places, but if its self sustaining and opened up as a starting option in the future then I think it could very easily function on its own as an evil entity.
look at this from an evil person perspective…
I don't want to walk around my city as an evil person with a damned phoenix guild member wandering around looking at me, asking questions to me about everything i do...
I dont' want one of the biggested known guys from the surface wandering around down there becuase its "open" and then suddenly running up top and telling everyone everything about it...
I don't want the general of a group that has already nearly brought war upon us skipping through town and coming down to buy crap because its got "cool loot" in arnath
Its the atmosphere of the place that just doesn't feel right. I agree with Wyk, you want discreet evil atmosphere hit up peltarch or maybe the camp...hell even norwick lately. Part of the fun about evil is being able to play evil, be openly evil, not hide your god, not hide if you're a drow, not hide if you're wanted on the surface. just to be there, in an atmosphere of evil, and play it.
People will send spies, you're right. Guess what, they do it as a neutral place. As a neutral place we still get flack for being from arnath. We get the majority of the flak we would get for being an evil city already, without any of the fun benifits of BEING an evil city...
I think the neutral front is good now, but once things get settled and evil can stay within the city easily I would be fine and more happy seeing it become a more "evil" city ((and by evil I mean evil and neutral aligned people on average...just like jiyyd is kind of a "good" town but still has a good bit of neutrals in it too)). If it forever and ever remains just a neutral city, for all comers, to all points, even after things get to where we don't have to get up top, i think it just kills the point of the place.
Plus...when the good people see slave trade, or public grousome executions, or prostituion all over, or temples dedicated to shar, bane, cyric, etc ((and i'll say the whole nice thing about an evil city is you don't have to HIDE those things)) then no amount of face we put up is going to ch ange that they're going to think the place is evil. And if we leave it open and neutral that just means that not only is it percieved evil, but they can stroll right in to start sabotaging if they want...
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Arnath is made, ruled and harbour evil people, but when Arnath first was made it tried to be a bit of a "evil only" zone, and because of this, those that was seen down there was witch hunted in placed like Norwick.
People metagame, people have limited perspectives, and unless you want Arnath to become a clique of 10 people who never really interact with the outside world, you must allow it to be more open.
If it is an "evil only" town, you leave out the thiving rogues, the pirates, the, and the dodgy dealers, that are more neutral than evil, and would find themselves quite at home underground, as well on the surface.
You do not want to have people sending down "spies" (and there will be spies, there are always character spying in Arnath) listing everybody they see down there, so that they will the next day be ban from other towns or arrested because they are "evils" from "evil Arnath, that only allow evils"
People get curious, they hear rumors that "evil arnath plan to destroy Norwick" and next you know, there will be guards at the crypt door again, arresting anybody with a bloody rag.
Keep a neutral front I say, and do what ever evil you feel like behind the masqurade.
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Arnath needs to keep a "neutral" face up until the time that it can thrive on its own.
Right now arnath people have to go to the surface if they want any kind of combat XP. That allows good people to take inventory.
If they want gold they have to go to the surface, once more, inventory.
Once arnath and the Underdark get revamped, spawns get put in, quests, and the new city, it can function on its own a good bit more and could probalby be a bit more "openly evil" by that point
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@dce8d87fb5=garric:
Wykith whats your intrest with arnath all the sudden is it because you lost your election in peltarch?
Um…yeah.
That, and just in case it slipped your mind, I've been pushing for Arnath since before Masume finally decided to build it
Just because I haven't been "openly active" lately doesn't mean I haven't been getting full reports on Arnath activity. :twisted:
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Wykith whats your intrest with arnath all the sudden is it because you lost your election in peltarch?
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Actually Gildor, Arnath was meant specifically for evil PCs. If Arnath takes a "neutral" stand, it has to allow good PCs entry, which defeats the entire purpose of its existence. If PCs want to live in a place where covert evil can thrive, Peltarch is the place. The reason the "good guys" can't take an inventory on who lives in Arnath to ban them is because they can't get -into- the city to begin with. Of course since Narfell doesn't have a policy against players playing both sides of the field, metagaming cannot be stopped, but at the very least, it can be slowed down.
What you are suggesting is exactly how the Gypsie camp ran for a few months back in the hayday of Ashan and Elendel. That idea did NOT work out well.
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I still stress that Arnath should have a "NEUTRAL" apperance, with "evil" behind the curtains.
The problem with Narfell in many ways is that people have a very black and white view to everything, there is evil, there is good, good kills evil, evil kills good.
To stop people to make war with "evil" Arnath, or run in and make a list of all its citizens just to ban them from other cities because they are "evil" you need to convince the other towns, Arnath is a "move around at your own risk - we don't mind what anybody does" place, but not a "the Eviltown, plotting the distruction of the world", capital.
IMHO
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Wethrillina worked out the design of a shop months ago. Adding this would be great.
I totally agree with the doors autolocking…absolutely.
A tiered spawn system outiside would also be great, the city is far enough from the surface so it can tier once in each direction.
For example:
Surface: low/mid/high/mid/low :Arnath
That and/or it can have its own tiered spawns behind the city gates, much like the gypsie camp's gnoll area that leads down to the cold caves. (Coolest place in Narf imo
)A summoning circle or dark temple that can be "booked" for certain dark rights.
I think the idea is to make Arnath as "Self sufficient" as possible, so that it becomes a place evil characters WANT to be in, instead of one that they "flee" to after they are chased out of the surface.
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I'm still in favour of the two tier city system.
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I don't see why we need a whole area for the outsiders. Can't we just set up a merchant and some tables outside our main gates?
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I'd like to see a two-part Arnath, similar to the Camp. One part anyone can enter (and is perfectly open for everyone, unless they screw up) and the other part is for rag-holders only.
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@86c69247ee=Zyphlin:
Corde's seen you a number of times
He just didn't think it was worth his time to talk with a little pimp
j/k
Pfft
:roll:
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Corde's seen you a number of times
He just didn't think it was worth his time to talk with a little pimp
j/k
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I'de like to see (Meet) corde…
Heheh i kid, i kid.
Hmmmnh...
I'de like to see some magic charge 1Use/Perday wands and stuff added to the shops.
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Keeps an eye on the thread
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My biggest frustration is not finding other folks in Arnath. To make it a better draw, I'd suggest:
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Public crafting facilities, ala Peltarch, though I'd add a check on the door to only let in folks with Bloody Rags, if there isn't such a check already at the Arnath gates.
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An extensive lowbie area, ala the Rawlins woods. There might be one already for all I know, as no one's ever taken me and the NPCs don't really guide me anywhere.
@52acae5eb1:
The way I see it, those who play evil in Narfell are almost prohibited from bringing pain and misery to their fellow players. This makes for a frustrated, castrated, laughable style of PC evil. HOWEVER, the one way I see we might be able to find a way around it is…understand this fact, and inflict pain and misery on each other.
That's one way, and a natural one, but hardly the only one. The problem many evil players have is that their inspiration comes from sadistic villains that want to destroy or enslave everything in sight. If anyone thinks it's hard playing one in Narfell, they should try being one in real life.
If you define evil as the absence of concern for the welfare of others, rather than an active hatred or desire to harm others, you get much farther. The world's business is driven by people who rarely give a rat's ass about the pain and suffering their decisions might bring others. Maybe they're more neutral than outright evil, but one can play with that scale.
My litmus test for a successful evil plot is whether you could persuade a neutral person to support it with a plausible-sounding argument. Narfil's advertisement for "medical experiments" in Norwick, for example, is something that would revolt most truly "good" characters, since they can't imagine not sacrificing everything to help another. A "neutral" or pragmatic character, however, might agree that given the way the world works, that's an offer that will help some families. Nevermind what happens to the test subject. :twisted:
The reason that plot isn't going anywhere isn't that Good PCs are up in arms about it– it's because I can't find anyone interested in taking part. Ditto with almost any evil opportunity I see. Evil players are a small and not very well organized group, and we probably have very different goals. Still, if anyone wants to get together and scheme in game, I'm ready. The current tension in Norwick is a huge opening for evil schemes.
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id like to see a smithy as well
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Things I'd like to see:
. A fight pit (already mentioned)
. A more entertainingly equipped jail/torturing facilities.
. Appropriate Evil temples, the Defiled altar in the tomb is a bit draughty and impersonal, as well as very close to all the do-gooders of Norwick.
. A decent bar
. Some handy shops.Some of those may have already existed in Arnath, but last time I was there I didn't have time to browse about due to hideous undead conflagrations, and an unfortunate Warmachine.
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Arnath is a very complex city because it has to accomodate all sorts of evil, from the political, manipulative, powermongers to the bloodthirsty death dealers.
Luckily, now that it WILL be a city, there is a place for everyone, and if handled right, can be a self motivated plot jungle within itself.
I could write on forever about how PC evil doesn't work in Narf despite how hard we try to make it…but let me instead try to add a positive note.
The way I see it, those who play evil in Narfell are almost prohibited from bringing pain and misery to their fellow players. This makes for a frustrated, castrated, laughable style of PC evil. HOWEVER, the one way I see we might be able to find a way around it is...understand this fact, and inflict pain and misery on each other.
Like I said, Arnath has the potential to be a mini-Narf. A self centered little plot pit with factions and schemers, being as evil as they want to be, but only while WITHIN Arnath. There is only one thing that makes this sadly unrealistic...numbers. We would need a LOT of people down in Arnath playing evil for this to actually work. Do I see it happening? I don't know...seems far off. Would I like it? But of course.
As far as the city itself....
For one, I think an arena, with the same rules as the one in the ferret should be placed in the "seedier" part of town. A place for all the baddies to handle their disagreements without outright PKing each other into stupidity.
I think a drug trade would be a great idea. Now, most Narfers aren't THAT hardcore (like Marlena was) to actually purposely put their PCs through a drug addiction, but it can still be an excellent weapon if put into food and smuggled into the other towns.
Slave trade would be a great plot hook too BUT, in the time that I've been here I've realized that few are actually ready or willing to play out such a role, and those that do, usually get shafted because their play time depends on either a DM or another player. So while it might work on the NPC level, or even just the RP level (they're in your house but are just RP tools), I don't think it would work on the PC level.
Organizations:
Assasin's guild, thieves guild, churches to different gods. All plotting and scheming against the greater good or maybe even against each other.
Now for my idea of Arnath as a plot pit to work, Pinky would need a lot of help. Another DM who is willing to center on Arnath and help evils go against each other and make Arnath really dangerous to walk around in.
That's just what popped into my head at the moment.
Could be all jibberish but I thought I'd express it anyway as always.
