3. Open Letter | To Team and All

Open Letter | To Team and All


  • Good evening Narfellians,

    Well, I've been gone for no more than 50 days and you've all somehow managed to take the server all the way to Hell in a handcart.

    Jokes aside and onto serious business.

    I have been playing on Narfell for a long time now, it would be fair to use the word decades. In that time I have achieved my Player Token, I have been a Player Guide, at one time I believe a Player Lead, and I worked with the team as DM (DM_Braveheart). I've had my moments of doubt and I have had to walk away from the server more than once, but - as evidenced by this post - I have always made my way back here to this place. It is comfortable to me. There are more things that I like than dislike. Even at the expense of real life years.

    I have noticed that the server's population has dwindled down to the low, single digits. I think today (9/21/2023) we peaked at 4 players online at one time with most of them logging in to quickly peek then leave just as suddenly. When I personally noticed a few regulars no longer logging in at all I started to reach out, to determine exactly why. Which brings me to this open letter, which I hope can be used to collect the necessary data which may be the catalysts that drives those desired changes.

    My intention is to have this post up, and open for at least two weeks and closing so sooner than October 6th, next Friday. At which time I will present the data we gather here in that timeframe to the DM Team for review. By years end, if not sooner, it is my hope that the team will have had enough time to take any upcoming suggestions, gripes or grievances into account - and to put forward to the player-base a delivered response outlining some goals based on this data, for 2024 and/or the arrangement of an in game or Discord based server meeting.

    So I will ask for candor, concise reasoning, and above all else decorum and respect for one another and for our team.

    There will be some rules that I would encourage us all to adhere to when responding to this post with your suggestions, gripes, or grievances.

    Please do not name names, point fingers, or blame openly. Choose your wording carefully and anticipate a private message asking for clarity. Please be honest and forthcoming with your responses in these cases.

    Please offer a suggestion along with your gripes or grievances. The goal here is to bring back the fun, recommend the fix that would make you happy.

    Please do not respond directly to anyone else's message, this is not a conversation thread - it is data collection.

    If possible, keep it short. Problem | Solution.

    This is not intended to be restricted to Players only, as part of the mission I expect and anticipate that our DMs, Developers and other Narfell staff can share this space and add their voice too. I hope you will join in bravely, and without fear of retaliation.

    If you would prefer anonymity I am unbiased with no dog in this fight. Feel free to send me a private message and I will post your opinion/request on your behalf without judgement.

    On top of this, please do not feel that this must follow the format of Narfell's current 'Wish List'. If you see a subject, a pain point, or a complaint that you agree with, feel free to echo it and provide your own idea for a solution, or agree with the one presented. It is important for all of our voices to be heard.

    You are absolutely permitted and expected to post more than one item. Please be as thorough as you like, you have at least two weeks and these don't need to all come at once.

    My humble expectation from the Team is that the position of the players that respond here to be taken seriously. I would encourage you all to take the time to try to understand where each player is coming from with the propositions that come from this.

    My personal hope is that we can accomplish something together here. I hope that we can illuminate and address these things and communicate with one-another, that we can be heard and that those things that trouble one of us is in fact felt by all of us. I would like this to be the foundation upon which change is built. If you are in contact with a player who has already left or given up and you believe their voice should be added here, I'd ask you to invite them to leave a message here for us all and to check back in soon to see the results. I appreciate any time or thought that you can spare for this cause and I will look forward to sharing a brighter future in Narfell with all of you who participate.

  • The Halfling Defence League

    This post is deleted!

  • These posts were due to be closed on Friday (October 6th).

    As there are points that are still being addressed (thank you all again for being involved) I feel its appropriate to let it roll on. There's already some discussion going on behind the curtain I've no doubt, and @Seisan has been asking some specific questions in the Part 2 post.

    There hasn't been as much activity in here over the past couple of days. Should there be no posts after the weekend we'll consider this topic closed.

    I will keep an eye on both topics and if things wind down sufficiently to a point where it looks like everyone has said their piece, asked their asks, or vented what needs venting, I'll go ahead and announce the close.


  • Forums v Discord:

    Discord, while amazing, is a flow of consciousness. This means that everything is "of the moment". This is very valuable when you want to have a quick discussion, either in a channel or in voice chats.

    The Forums, on the other hand, present an archive. When you need information for topic X, it is most likely to exist in a relatively easy to find, concentrated presentation.

    I cannot say that I have been on the Narf Discord much, but the statements above stand for me as a universal. If you weren't there when it happened on Discord, you usually missed it because, once it is off the current screen, you have no idea that you need to go back and look for it.

    Solution: Use Discord for discussion and socialization, use the Forums for in character/in game functions. If a DM or other authority makes a decision on Discord, get it into the appropriate place on the Forums.


  • Concern: the 'quick fix' idea is one I find problematic. I'm not a fan of the big red button solution, because I think that's the ultimate quick fix that doesn't necessarily fix anything. I believe the general idea behind the changes in recent years was benign; to bring about a more level playing field for a smaller player base, so that we could all adventure together and form parties without the newer PC having to wait years to catch up. And with ease of levelling and loot, that's now entirely possible, yet instead there's more soloing and more focus on mechanics than ever before. Would that necessarily change because we nuked all the good old RP content to start 'fresh'? I personally doubt it.

    Solution: recognize that change can be a gradual process and one which we all can contribute to, including us players, by our play style, mindset and attitude towards others. If the consensus is to return to a lower level setting, I see no reason we can't do that by delevelling characters and altering items (both of which I've done before), slim down coffers that already exist and so forth. Honestly, I don't really care about any of that, but I do care about the characters themselves and the stories they're made up of, both my own and others, as well as the homegrown lore of Narfell.


  • I'll keep it brief this time:

    Concern: dwindling content and use of the forums. As I share DrD's concern raised previously in a longer post, I thought I'd highlight it this way, so that it won't be lost in the flood. As someone who chose not to take part of the Dischord channel, I have at times felt disconnected or left wondering at IG reactions to things, concluding that the background likely came from Dischord and was never posted on the forums. Even without the above experience, it's clear I'm not the only one seeing less interesting content posted on the forums.

    Solution: keep all things IC to the forums as well as important OOC issues that concern everyone. I really prefer that Dischord or any chat channel tied to the game be optional for those of us who prefer not to use it. I'm sure it's got plenty of handy functions, but for me it distracts from the immersion and thus my enjoyment of the game.


  • I have four questions that the community may want to consider in this push for change (and my personal ideas about each):

    What is the demographic for NWN as a game?
    I think it'd be RPers that are interested in the live video game action version of PnP. Stray toward video game or PnP and there are better options available elsewhere. So a blend of real time action and character choices driving unexpected changes to the game world backdrop (sandbox). Trying to attract folks interested in playing this as either extreme will be sub-par at best.

    What is the NWN game engine good/bad at?
    Leaning to the parts that make NWN unique will lead to attracting community members with those interests. I think this really has to do with the toolset making this live action game as flexible as a PnP campaign... although with a serious time commit to accomplish systemically. It was intended to be a storyteller and efforts should likely lean into that.

    What is the target audience for Narfell?
    IMHO, systems that promote time commitment as the primary way of retaining their community will lead to a small group that will insist upon maintaining the status quo. Those that can't meet that commitment will go elsewhere (and have). As such, promoting casual in-game play, with a smaller time commit will attract a wider audience. Like, decide if you think the average Narfellian will hop in twice a week for about 3 hours at a pop... and focus on systems that reach out to those folks.

    Time commit isn't the only aspect of target audience though. There are a couple great articles on gamer motivations from game designers that talk about the way gamers have fun and the different types of play. Categories like exploration, narrative, challenge, self-expression, fellowship, immersion, sense-pleasure, competition, completionists, achievement, strategy... and a bunch more. A PnP game master should try and discover which player type each of the participants are and try to include that in the adventure, if they want everyone to have fun.

    Narfell currently comes off as heavy into competition, strategy and achievement, with almost no fellowship, narrative or immersion. Find out what the community wants as the predominant play styles to attract to the module.

    What's missing from other NWN online servers that Narfell could use to attract members (players/DMs and devs)?
    Are there servers with:

    1. active forum storytelling to add depth to the adventure in the game engine?
    2. gear deterioration over time?
    3. DM getting plots approved for possible changes to the environment based on character actions
    4. DM and Dev roles without a paywall of too many play hours of commitment?
    5. prioritized group play through interdependence of characters? (i.e. level progression stressing lower levels, or monster combinations that require multiple skillset to survive)
    6. promotion and reward of group play? ex: Increases in XP for groups of 3-7 with a level range within 3 levels and/or decreases outside that situation?
    7. a DM and dev training program?
    8. modular wiki setups that would allow a casual DM to keep their secrets out of the hands of other DMs and players allowing more plug and play DMing options
    9. where the DM role is retained through merit and trust... based on surveys from the community regarding their adventures and treatment of other community members?
    10. a equal player / DM / dev council who all vote on systemic changes?
    11. a manner of cycling characters to prevent stagnation? ex: permanent CON reduction on each rez? character aging over real life time through reduction of stats till death? high level character retirement into a backdrop NPC?
    12. a crafting system where the primary difficulty to overcome isn't time commitment? ex: treating advancement in crafts as a built-in skill again that levels with the character.
    13. a reactionary/tweakable economy?
    14. rewards above a certain tier approved through a public council?
    15. good methods of reducing travel time between area tiers? ex: reducing horizontal mapping by increasing vertical axis
    16. safe stop points where everyone in a group can log-out/in later and continue the adventure later?
    17. systemic scheduling of group game time
    18. guilds / jobs choice requirement at character generation that allow for in-character meeting points
    19. resources using RNG on maps at each reset (done by tier)?
    20. a publicly available dev wiki of coding solutions to make development more modular, consistent and available as a resource to train new devs with?

    I could keep going but really... if the community is serious about change for the better, it'd be vital to find out who you want to attract, and the game play aspects that will not only bring them here, but aren't available elsewhere. Those will decide if you can attract not only those kinds of players... but also those kinds of DMs and devs.

    Good luck - Kerby


  • I see you've all been taking my 'keep it short' to heart. Good grief.

    This is great though, thank you all so far who have contributed.


  • Hello all, your not so favorite rogue and rotund gnome.

    Having taken a few days to look back at Narfell and kind of tilt my head through some discord (aka the new forums) for several weeks of history/talks I kind of rounded up an opinion for myself on where Narfell is now and how I personally as a player could have been retained when I eventually decided to move on.

    Lets start with what I see Narfell as now:

    TheRPG:
    But without roleplay? From what I can tell the most roleplay one gets is the small amount of effort exchanged in #tradeing-post to exchange the same 100-200k between 4-8 players Mains/alt characters.

    Narfell has changed into a looter if you will from the outside view, I don't have the heart to get past the log in boat to see, and it does not really have the community to be more than that from examining the #server-status so I don't really blame anyone who stayed for adapting. However this certainly turns new players, for example.

    As a new player to Narfell the easy way to get answers is the discord, and when you arrive one of the first things you see is the status bot that shows... well a very lacking population which already puts you back a bit on the 'Oh could try a more popular one'. Not to mention then being able to scroll through the discord to see the rapid exchange of 100's of thousands of gold for +3 items (We're never putting those in btw but we will nerfs your old good items.) and other RLG items.

    Very little incentive is left for a new players, in my opinion, past that point.

    TLDR: RPG without RP, Looter now, intimidating starting front for new players, unsatisfying return point for old players.

    The RPG fix
    Burn it all to the ground and restart, lets be honest, at this point anyone left playing Narfell isn't here for their 5/6/7th level 17 character they are here because they like the people. So at least try to get the old players who actually enjoyed the server so long ago back(Actually not me since I totally advocated for stronger item magic for years as well as higher levels). I know this was proposed some time ago, and was shot down, but damn it does look like the best idea because as an older 'member' of the community I don't really want to come back to the current iteration. My items I really liked where nerfed because magic level wanted to be toned down, and now I see RLG items that contend with DM dropped awesome story loot that had months, or years, of effort put into them that people just hash around. I'd be much more comfortable just starting fresh and letting it ride from there you know when we all showed up in Jiyyd as level 1's and offered to CMW someone at the fire... everyone said no... then you casted a fireball and killed poor George. Good times.

    TLDR: Server Reset.

    True Rez Problem
    It should never have been a thing, it was never a good idea, death needs a penalty more than a 'pittance' (it's actually a ton to everyone not sloshing 100,000 gold per RLG item from a power build.) Perhaps I'm jaded from some dozen deaths at level 12 for so many years losing months/years or progress but that could have been fixed without TR's. It was in my opinion a lazy solution to a problem.

    True Rez Solution
    Get rid of it, make an actually balanced death system instead.

    Power creep
    We are long past the days of RP builds getting flavour/nice items to keep up with the mighty powerbuild through their RP efforts and finesse of skills/RP stats. It's why I built Warziver, it's why I sought the combination of classes he is, and it's why I don';t because any future Narfell with an RLG/Enchanting and item stat limit can ever come back. When all gear is platformed to a cap it rewards how your foundation is set and there is nothing you can stat roll, skill check, or cleverly RP skill your way into that might give you that extra +1 str, +1 ab, +4 skill on an items to slowly bring you back into the fold.

    Power creep solution
    Either bring back uncapped items that can rewards for truly impressive roleplay accomplishments or don't address the power creep at all and embrace a higher level, higher magic Narfell. (As it has become, even though I was told soooo many times it never would be.)

    That is kind of all I have to say on the server as a whole without actually playing a moment on it within the current state through gameplay. These are just things I can observe through discord conversations, status updates of the sever, and my past experience.

    Dungeon Masters
    Ah, yes, so I know it's a poor basis point but when one can count on one hand the number of proper #event 's announced on discord that where not DM's announcing things on the server for fixes in 3/4 months it shows the level of interest left in roleplay. I also am not sure if it's me, or I'm just too old school, but finding new posts on the Narfell forums is either too hard or literally no one posts events to it either and that is even worse. Now I doubt it's easy to plan/do events when the average player count is 1-4 leaning to the lower but I remember at least fight nights USED to gather some attention even as a pass by from players who literally never played and stimulated some kind of RP/fun games.

    I am also one of the players however who a large part of leaving the server was the, to my own perspective, blatant favour cast towards players from some DM's and even DM's themselves hand shaking one another. I can't say if that has gotten any better but what I can say is having a real objective look at the DM team, who is actually trying to do things for the server/events and just let the inactive status/no event running/no behind the scenes DM's go instead of keeping them on roster for months/years.

    Dungeon master solution
    The same as the server reset, perhaps whomever is active just stays and the rest become players. New server new team, a smaller team makes it easier to spot the blatant favour passed directly to players as well but does restrict time zones, im no expert here.

    Gated content
    Ah yes the thing I hate MOST in any game and one that STONEWALLED something I really wanted for my main character for years. Something I think was arguably worse than what I was actually approved for which I think was MUCH more server breaking to the point a DM made and evil counterpart. Gate keeping PRC's/Unique things is fine to a degree, at least become a member of the community, like the old RP tokens we had that proved we 'belong' displaying enough RP merit and that is what gets you access to XYZ. As a DM team you have the ability to instantly zap someone for ANY kind of abuse of a system and instead you stonewall them in favour of I mean I don't even know why honestly.

    Long dead is the, "Oh well the player can break the system with it." To which I literally just point to every RLG farmer out there these days fighting, what are they, Omni-elementals that give EXP to level 20? that CR must be insane. What breaks the system more than that? You're worried about people breaking the PvE content but I mean... c'mon. Nerfs to PRC's like the one done to AA is... laughable as well, at no point was that needed. Now an AA gets a +3 arrow several levels after or right as a mage or a cleric gets +4, and both of them can get full BAB thanks to other combat tricks. (Turns/level vs infinite please tell me the last time your +4 weapon ran out on you during your last RLG hunt? I used to run around with a bard all the time and let me tell you my +3 weapon was NEVER gone and I did some LONG trips.)

    Gated Content Fix
    Stop trying to keep unique and fun things behind the wall, punish the ones who abuse it instead.
    Stop nerfing things to keep casters objectively the best thing on the server.
    Stop making the benchmark for acceptance 'What could someone do with it' and instead make the floor 'You did this naughty naughty now this PERSON can not have this nice thing.' Do not punish the mass for the singular prospect of what someone could do.

    Going to +1 some peoples idea's next.

    @WouldBeBard The entire post is great, I didn't think I'd like the +1 regen idea but the more I read the more I was onboard with it. Creature power as well.

    Several people have also echoed this point but 'The Server has no identity' is quite clear, a direction to what Narfell wants to be would be nice. If it wants to be a 16-20 level server, THAT IS FINE, but just tell us instead of capping magic items to level 9 and telling us to work hard.

    @Gonnar Entire post is very good, you need to pick a power level and stick to it, own it and balance around it. Though I am more in favour of it's higher end curve (more fun honestly) I think either solution is great.

    I'll boradly address all the +3 equipment and RLG item things here for myself since a lot of people have talked about it.
    High magic items bring mundane in line with magic classes, having +3 available is not bad at all, having more stats available is a good thing. Having +spell slot/caster items being = with mundane items is a problem. Because a magical player needs to only find the no EB equivalent of that +3 sword and they are strong, that +3 armour is instead +2 con and now they have more stats. Class restrictions on gear, it's in the toolset, use it to keep magic where it belongs and mundane where it belong in the adventure party.

    Great example: Giant lich event in the Mountains east? of Jiyyd many years ago Maria (level 18 or something at the time) used SO FEW spells on the climb to the Lich because power limited which actually let the tanks/melee play the game. Not knowing when/who was going to be able to rest/where a rest could take place. Back ending all 18 levels of that massive power to confront the big bad properly, magic has a role and it isn't to be the Tank/DPS/Healing/Jack of all trades. It's the nuke, it's the fighter steroid, it's the support. Adventure parties are built on the back of mundane with magic gear guiding their wizard to ward reality on the BBEG and that's fine.

    TLDR: High magic is fine, just use class restrictions properly.

  • A

    Hi All,

    I love logically consistent stories most often with twists in the tale. Here are my suggestions in no particular order.

    1. DMs should not be able to play PCs.
    2. Have a scheduled town hall meeting once a month.
    3. Make the death penalty far less onerous, or perhaps even trivial?
    4. Reduce the level cap to 12.
    5. DMs must be able to commit to at least one four hour stint per week (barring holidays).
    6. Have a blanket restart, perhaps making some of the current heroes NPCs.
    7. Make crafting more relevant.
    8. Have gear deteriorate slowly over time (if it's relatively easy to code).
    9. Have the DM team plan out some large overarching plots with different (game changing) paths depending upon what the players do or do not do.

    Overall, whatever else you do, have fun.


  • After many attempts at putting a coherent argument together, I have something wordy as all get out. Even more than my Tales by the Fire entries. It’s still 3700 words on 7 pages, and I’m not even going to apologize.

    It should be no surprise where I stand. Stories are the be all end all, to me. I have little interest in what level my character is, and even less in the fastest, most sure fire way to increase it. I don’t kill mobs for XP, and only kill things for gold because it’s a necessary evil if I want to survive the plots (or the mobs when my partners in crime do decide something needs to die). Halfway to level 16, I have ten types of creatures at Adept, everything else is Novice.
    There’s only a handful of games where any amount of grind doesn’t cause me to put it down immediately, and NWN doesn’t allow for building your own village like Medieval Dynasty does. Let alone look that good.
    I know others do enjoy this, however, and I won’t knock them for it. Some people just want to throw their toon at the craziest thing they can find to see if they'll survive, and I respect that.

    I am here for the stories. The history of a world, the stories of the PCs and NPCs that live in it and the plots they live through. Above all, I adore the ability to influence these stories and having my own story influenced. That's not to say I don't enjoy combat, or don't enjoy dungeon crawls. I just enjoy it more when the characters' personalities become a part of those moments. I enjoy combat more when it furthers a story, be that a PC's story or a DM's story. When it is a catalyst for change. George went from a no strings, “live fast, die young” mercenary that put his faith in Tymora to an aspirant Divine Champion of Helm. Most of that change happened trying to hold on to his sanity fighting all manner of Outsider and Aberration, or dungeon crawls to preempt them. I certainly hope that story isn’t left without a conclusion.
    So where is the issue?

    I can’t pinpoint the change, but over the past few months, it feels as though the server caters more and more to the grind. Most of the talk I've seen on Discord in that time has been about who can stomp which spawns where and do it solo, how long it took to get there, what loot to expect, how people want more loot still or how it would be unfair to lose even a smidge of power that people took years to scratch and scrape together, which is then contrasted by players hitting 18 in months.
    I will say I have been amazed at the quality of the dungeons that have popped up, even if I’m not an undivided fan. Same with all the mechanics like the Hunting System, despite not spending time on it. The #rumor-mill channel, despite leaving it muted. Like appreciating a well-made motorcycle despite not riding.
    The issue is the appearance of dungeons like that implies that the world is becoming less mutable. Perhaps that’s just in my head. Still, I cannot see the staff changing an area on a whim, or obliterating it entirely when it is tied to dungeons that took six months to the better part of a year to design. I also would never expect that from anyone.
    I worry that the world will stagnate even as the module becomes more elaborate.

    There are servers like that. With a massive playerbase (for NWN) and good roleplay. Plenty of adventuring and plenty of dungeons. In one, the server is stagnant by nature of the setting. In another, by virtue of being too large to regularly update to reflect character choices. I played one a few months in 2007, and I hopped in again this summer. There were more choices to be made at start up, but they had the exact same areas with the exact same NPCs to greet you, the exact same dungeons in the exact same spots holding the exact same creatures. The exact same overarching villains. In ten years, they will have more areas. Yet all the areas that were, will still be mostly the same.
    Despite all it has going for it, it feels lifeless even with so many trying to breathe life into it. It feels too much like some Hannah-Barbera cartoon where every episode is nearly the same as the previous one, and every new season resets the growth characters had.

    I understand the dungeons are made for players to have something to do when DMs are absent, but it seems to have created a mindset that they're what players should be doing all the time and the only way for characters to advance. It ends with players coming together, deciding which of the named villains they are going to smack around again that week (or even day), and what to bring, with barely any roleplay beyond that. That certainly breaks my immersion.
    Imagine hearing a bunch of character casually mention they’re going to murk Rass for the third time that week. For myself, I could thoroughly enjoy a dungeon like that to completion once, after which it would just feel awkward.
    Now, so far, none of this needs to be a server problem. It’s just my meandering thoughts. The issues could all be on my end.

    The server does have problems, though.

    The past year has seen a sizeable amount of new blood, and none of it stuck around. This is the clearest writing on the wall. I’d expect even a harsh world to retain at least a handful, but no.
    None of them found anything they wanted to stay for.

    All the player stalls are filled with gear that is not moving off the shelves due to a combination of market saturation with good gear, overpricing despite saturation and simple absence of players (including the shop owners).
    We have new players thinking grinding into 17+ is the only way to get ahead. They race towards the endgame thinking that’s where the game begins. The complaints I've heard from other players seem to boil down to the same thing; Even while the server is still driven by change, they feel they have no influence on the outcome of fights, the outcome of plots or the outcome of the overarching IC world. They feel insignificant, not needed and ignored.
    Some think they aren't powerful enough and blame their level and their gear, thinking they just can't keep up with the more powerful PCs. Others blame favouritism. Either due to a good ol' boys feeling, or because they feel they need to be powerful enough to be noticed.
    I will say that I experienced neither of these things, as my character has been rolling with the 16+ adventurers since level 7 (with hilarious levels of danger and a good helping of humility when it came to combat), and all he had to do was waltz up and act like he always was part of them. This was even before most had realized I was Wannabe_Irish in times past.
    Admittedly, it's entirely possible I'm part of the problem, there.

    I have no suggestions on favouritism. I don't know what other players are getting in terms of attention or rewards. Rumours abound, though. Something popped off behind the curtain and DM activity has petered out. Now, I don't see what's going on behind the DM screen, and I don't want to. I did that for a very brief stint back in 2008/9(?) and I'll be just as pleased never doing it again. I have tried not to feed the flames, but the unspoken, awkward reluctance people have to get online isn't coming out of thin air. That is something the team must fix among themselves.

    The idea that new players feel they can't hang with the big boys, that I have given some thought.
    It seems the grinding is done to get to a level where the player feels they might get some DM attention, as though their level were an entry exam to DM run plots. To me, that is a shame. Nobody seems to want to linger in the charms of being the low level. We come back to the point where low levels just want to discuss what to kill and how, in order to play catch up. To get the feeling their playing with the veterans matters. It turns what was a server full of stories and history into an action game, and sometimes a single player game.

    I went dungeon diving with one player the other day, wanting to give a new (to me) place a try. George died two rooms in. His companion went and cleared the rest of the dungeon solo to mitigate the cost of the whole ordeal. Now, the player seemed amazed at how squishy George is when he has the reputation he does, likely not realizing their PC had 2 levels on him until I pointed it out. They also said I could easily just take a TR over a Raise since it was "only 40k", likely not realizing that's about 10% of all the gold George has ever seen. When a player has a character like that and still feels their character is insignificant, there is a problem.

    I can't blame them for thinking they must grind to keep up. I can't blame them for thinking they were not at George's level or his wealth, either. Part of the problem is the mechanics and balance of the server, as it always has been.

    Some builds are just hilariously disfavoured. Having to burn through tens of thousands of gold worth of potions, scrolls, consumables and ammo. Sometimes they come back from a dungeon with only half of what they spent because selling to an NPC was their only option. Then I’ve seen players raising these issues get the equivalent of “git gud” as a reply. George had the benefit of being a WM for most of his career, wielding a two handed weapon. The damage is obscene. Even when he was considerably lower level than his peers, he could be counted on to dish out damage as long as I managed to keep him alive. By contrast, my only cost was gear that doesn't run out plus healing.

    Suggestions

    On True Rez
    Others have given their thoughts on the average level and on TRs, and I find myself mostly agreeing with them. I feel if TRs are to be kept, I would limit them to two a year. It was first introduced so the server was more forgiving to bad luck, and lag or absurd crit chains are definitely a factor. You can certainly get unlucky once or twice a year.
    I could live without it, though. The fact that I can no longer lose items that are significant to the character's history is forgiving enough, in my mind.
    So let me spitball something here;
    Remove TRs altogether. Set a hard cap at 16 or even 14 (an even number to help out the few sorcerers compared to wizards). Make leveling relatively easy, but death well harsh. People often complain they lose years’ worth of effort to death. Do not incrementally limit combat XP at any level, and leave it somewhat easy to get to the higher ones, but have a death blow away 1-3 levels at a time. Death then becomes debilitating, but nothing a few months of playing can't fix. New players will also not feel they need to grind for years to play catch up.

    On the discussion of level ranges
    I'm leaning more towards lowering the average level.
    3E by its nature starts favouring casters over non casters from the mid levels and it gets worse with each level, especially when gear does not keep up. Gear that brings martials sort of up to par would make the economy even more insane. Opening up the epic levels will only add to that, or leave martials in the dust if the gear does not follow. There are reasons that works well in PnP. Far less so in a persistent world, but that’s an argument for another day. In short, the lower levels simply have better balance.

    Now on combat mechanics.
    Some builds are in for a bad time, regardless of skill. You could call it Darwinism. I’ve certainly poked fun at KingCreeper for not just wearing armor on Cormac. Unlike in real life, though, it kills diversity. Do we want to tailor the server’s content to the handful of players that know the game inside and out, and have highly optimized builds? Most players aren’t that. Especially not most new players.
    I do have to admit, the players that are, are still active even now, so what do I know?

    A lot of people in the past have suggested nerfs to this or that class, or that spell or feat, or buff these guys, and on and on. It might be more elegant to make some changes to the meta, though. Changes that might have made things easier on players we've lost due to thinking their characters aren't viable.
    Now, the following veers away quite a bit from PnP, but I’d argue we have to find our own balance. NWN is not PnP. You do not have the options PnP with DM supervision gives you. Even with DM supervision, the game moves too fast for a DM to be on top of everything, especially in large groups. You fight a hilariously higher amount of monsters in an equally higher amount of encounters than you would in a campaign, and the engine can be a fickle, arbitrary beast.

    The first few suggestions will make combat significantly easier on their own. Counters to balance things out will be provided after.

    • Remove flat DR on all creatures and replace it with % reduction.

    10/- is doable when your minimum damage is 13 before buffs. When you're wielding something finessable with 10 STR, 5/- is an issue, depending on gear. 10/- is torture. 15/- is a show stopper. Finesse characters as well as archers hit a point where they can barely scratch anything, even with plenty of buffs. Lower levels that hang around with higher levels, too, will hit a point where they feel they can't contribute. Given the low number of low levels, that is an issue, as most are forced to hang with the higher levels.
    By removing flat DR and using % reduction, everyone that hits does at least 1, even at a 90% reduction. While it does not turn finesse characters and archers into killing machines, at least it doesn’t leave them twirling their thumbs until the end of an event. Now the saucy part? Leave DR available to the players on items, spells and class features. Because in NWN’s numbers game, the players will always be disadvantaged by sheer volume of enemies.

    • Lower creature AB across the board, possibly lower the damage

    Way back when, a high level (at the time) told me "in the lands of Narfell, AC is king". Not entirely true, but it certainly is a large part of becoming untouchable, done through DR, Concealment, AC and in the rarest of cases, Parry.
    This mostly hinges on spells, spell crystals, and UMD+scrolls. Those who don't have access to magic or pocket mages, but still want to melee, are forced to optimize (lowering diversity) or accept working at a considerable disadvantage. Lowering the AB of creatures will make melee viable for those that want to wield smaller (or no) shields or wear something other than (half) plate.
    This would mainly benefit those characters you'd expect to find in melee but don't necessarily go full tank; rogues, rangers, barbarians. Of course, those that already have an easy time reaching high ACs will have an even easier time to reach lower ACs, but if your enemy has +20AB, it doesn't matter if your AC reaches 41S or 70.
    If you lower the damage in tandem , you lower the odds of characters getting curbstomped by a lucky crit (chain).

    • Lower creature AC across the board

    This argument isn't much different from the above. Cranking up AB is one more thing that requires access to magic, hilarious amounts of gold, or optimization. Removing the need to get this as high as possible allows for spells and money to be spent elsewhere. This change favours those classes that often end up in melee but aren't full BAB; rogues, monks, bards It also might make an unpopular feat like Power Attack viable again when you don't absolutely need that 5AB.

    • Lower Discipline on all creatures (but put a cooldown on relevant feats)

    Something I was told way back when is that many of the creatures in the past had been given very high Discipline skill to counter Knockdown Spam. This has done its job of making sure KD isn't an "I win" button. At the same time, it has made Called Shot and Disarm all but useless. The penalties are not worth their effect when it gets shrugged off nine out of ten times. This is unfortunate, as Called Shot, Improved Disarm and Improved Knockdown are about the only feats martials have to spice up the "click red and wait" life. Whirlwind being one more, but that is useful at least.
    If it is indeed the case that this is done to counter spam, please just put a timer on these things instead.

    • Give everyone +1 regeneration, permanently

    No, no. I’m not joking. Sure, it will make things a great deal easier on the lower levels, but 1HP per round becomes entirely irrelevant during combat at higher levels. Healing at a temple already isn't a money sink because 100gp is next to nothing, on the other hand +1 regen will never replace the healing potions or healing spells needed during a serious fight.
    So why do it? Because I suspect you will see it slow down the pace of an adventure. People will drag out every quiet moment to squeeze in just a couple more HP rather than using a spell or spending a potion. Sneaks might suddenly find themselves with ample time to play their role and scout.

    Now, those things all just make everything easier. That would be boring.

    • Increase monster HP

    To balance out the monsters' lower AC and getting smacked more often. When I say increase, however, I mean by JRPG amounts. The exact amounts would have to be tested, but think flunkies and mobs that have three times the HP of an appropriate level Fighter, villain henchmen that have ten times the amount. Villains with double that again, if need be. They need to last to be able to pose a threat.

    • Increase number of attacks

    To balance out the lowered AB (if the AB is lowered significantly enough), and to balance out a possible lower damage output, increase the amount of rolls a character is exposed to. Either by increasing the number of monsters, or their attacks per round (if this is possible without increasing BAB). It might seem senseless to lower the odds of getting hit in one metric only to raise it again by another metric. The change mostly serves to spread out accumulating damage, giving the squishier classes more time to react and bow out when things start going south. Getting torn apart in ten to fifteen rounds as opposed to one to three.

    • Consider making %Reduction common, ramp it up on high level monsters

    This could be used to not drive up monster HP to hilarious levels, and still slow down the pace at which they get mown down.

    • Give all mid level monsters and up +1 regen, too

    +1 regeneration might not be significant to high level PCs, but due to the amount of spawns faced, it will pose a problem when all monsters around you are constantly healing. It will emphasize the need to kill things quickly even more.
    But only in combination with the above measures. Not for lower level monsters, since this would be a death warrant for low level characters.

    None of the measures above would truly end up hampering the already powerful classes. It might mean some tactics become dated, but I believe most can adapt quite readily. What the combined measures will mostly do is shift the balance from needing to be untouchable to cranking out higher DPS.

    The high amount of attacks means AC and even concealment will not save you in the long run, so you want to avoid the long run. Avoiding the long run then helps your caster friends.
    This would give more significance to rapid shot archers, flurrying monks and dual wielders for the extra attacks, and two handed weapon wielders for the 1.5STR bonus.
    When things out there are relatively easy to hit, but need thousands of HP whittled away, 7d6 sneak attack rogues might suddenly not feel like they can't pull their weight. Power attack, again, might not be so ignored. Even IPA might make a return. There are more options to attain high DPS than there are to maximize AB/AC, which I believe will lead to more variety.
    You'll note that much of the above favours rogues, barbarians, rangers and monks, as well as ranged characters. That is by design. Several of the new players we lost played one of those.

    On a complete server reset
    I would not be opposed. Whether keeping characters or not. I would choose to keep the lore, though, and let the team decide what is canon or flights of fancy.
    If keeping the lore, the struggles with N’Jast provide ample opportunity wipe the slate clean. Peltarch getting ground into the dust despite the adventurers defending it. After all is said and done, Uthmere could become the central town, even if it’s not Narfell. She’s a beauty.
    Regardless, if the slate is wiped, I would suggest it be brought about in an actual event, one where everyone knows they’re not getting out alive if they join in (but also knows the character will be gone regardless). A last hurrah, a final stand.

    Having said all that, I should point out my absence is not due to any problems I have with the rules, the combat meta, or even the roller coaster ride of high/low fantasy. NWN is just not a game I enjoy playing on my own, but it's somehow turned out that way.


  • I left years ago because Narfell had lost its way, and when Andelas stood down as Head DM and I put my hand up to step into the roll, I was very clear with the team about what I saw the issues as, and what I would be doing as Head DM to address the issues.

    Staff voted against me, selected a different Head DM, and I moved on.

    I said at the time that it was going to end up where it is, and it has.

    When Mexican Cookie was Head DM all those years ago, there was a serious attempt to revitalise things as well, and it was shot down by folks who just wanted more of the same, forever.

    It would be easier to start again with a new server, than to fix the issues Narfell has now, which are that for years a collection of bandaids have been slapped onto gaping wounds again and again, rather than doing the serious surgery that was needed.

    But, my opinion was not popular back then, and I doubt it's popular now.

    Apparently though, I didn't know what I was talking about. Probably still don't.


  • Hello it's me, I heard this was happening and thought I'd pop my head in.

    Obviously I've been out of the loop in the time I've been gone, but from what I can tell by other people's posts is that the grievances I had with the server are still around. So here goes my hat, let's see how far I can toss it into the ring.
    (this ended up being 5 pages long, so there's a tl;dr at the end, but it'd be nice if you read all of it anyway 🙂 )

    This is probably an open secret, but "RedMenace" was not a new player to the server, I played years ago under a different username. I didn't put in a lot of effort to hide it, so if you knew that you probably knew who I was. I wanted to be treated as a new person, without the baggage of being a returning player. That old person was a total dweeb and I'm glad they're dead. Glory to the new flesh. If you don't know who I was please don't message me asking to know, I'm not going to tell you. In many, many ways that I don't want to get into that person is not who I am anymore, if you know you know and I thank you for not making a thing of it.

    The reason I'm confessing to this now is because I'm seeing a lot of posts harkening back to the old days. Back when you started at level 2, the place to be was the Norwick Gate so you could take part in those sweet sweet gate attacks and the Troff Legion was an active faction. A level 12 PC was high level, and a +2 Longsword was a legendary weapon. When the server's main villain was a smart bugbear, when a Dracolich was something that needed the server to cap out to deal with. When people would stand guard by a gate listening to a halfling rant about the superiority of a crossbow. When things were, in the eyes of some people, better. I want it to be clear that I'm speaking from the same place as them.

    But also, the main reason I'm laying all of that out is because something I felt very keenly in my comparatively brief return to the server was that the opinions of new blood was not as valued as the old blood. I kept my mouth shut and resisted the urge to say it, but seeing people who I considered friends the first time I played here treat me like shit when they had no idea who I was hurt a lot. Since this is probably going to be the last time I try to express my love, and heartbreak, for this server I want the attempt to have everything going for it that it can.

    The Problem: The server has lost all identity.

    Narfell is a country that is far, far to the north east of Fae'run, cut off from the majority of civilization by absurdly dense forests, rugged mountains and general Bad Weather. Its people are rough, barbaric and eek out a struggle to survive with the only sizeable settlement being Peltarch, a ramshackle fishing village made out of the ruined stone of the Old Empire, populated by pretentious barbarians acting like they're better than their kinsmen. Now obviously, this isn't accurate to say of the NWN server Narfell. But what /is/ server canon Narfell? Well, the answer you get depends on the DM you ask. If you ask one DM, yeah, it's a podunk shithole that no one cares about. Peltarch is just some nicer than average city that has a few people in it. But if you ask another, Peltarch is a flourishing kingdom that has all of these vassal villages that totally exist, they're just off screen. It's the center of trade with caravans from Calimshan rolling in to do trade from the literal other side of the continent, but it's all very mundane and low fantasy. Except no, if you ask another DM it's all very magical and high fantasy. Caravans aren't just rolling in from Calimshan, that would be stupid. They're actually making permanent teleportation circles connecting Narfell and Calimshan forever because it's such an important trade route, because that's much more reasonable.

    This disconnect between visions of the server is present in everything. What is the Bag of Holding storage place? Is it just a big warehouse where you store your goods? Or did these random commoners get their hands on hundreds of bags of holding and make an interdimensional warehouse? Because I've heard people insist it's both. Is Narfell a gritty low fantasy setting, where the people are superstitious and death and violence are common and brutal, or is it a high fantasy setting where gods meddle with common people frequently, common bandits on the road to High Hold are high level wizards or wield powerful magical gear, and there's an elite knightly order of spellswords that control Peltarch.

    These weird inconsistences aren't just in the Low Magic/High Magic dichotemy. Even things such as How does the governmental structure of Peltarch function varies from DM to DM. The importance of the Cerulean Knights, the core concept of the Far Scouts, the authority of individual officials, who is even in charge of what. Every DM has their own idea of how it goes and it seems no one cares to talk it over with each other. And at the time I left it was very clear that the utter refusal to set a baseline expectation was draining each DM, as everyone was making their own settlements to control so they didn't have to bother with the inconsistency of Peltarch.

    And once again, these constant inconsistencies aren't even limited to just the RP and setting. What can you expect when you leave Peltarch? Originally, the rule seemed to be that if you stuck to the major road you'd be relatively safe, save for one particular spot that had an alternate path to avoid. But now design philosophy depends on who made the particular area. Peltarch to Norwick, safe. Peltarch to High Hold, an equally as major route, you have to fight your way through hordes of Giants, Manticores and then the most absurdly powerful bandit army I've ever seen. When you break through the Rawlinswood onto the Golden Way, literally one of the most important trade routes in Faerun, you’re likely to get absolutely swooped by some kind of horrifying high level beasty. Who is patroling these roads? Who’s even traveling them to begin with?

    This entire point has already been made by Digit in an earlier post.

    @digit said in Open Letter | To Team and All:

    Form follows function. What kind of server are we??? Really? And who is our target audience? More people? Small group? Mulchers? Broad appeal more people? Nostalgia Presence? Decades of required investment or the possibility to be involved as a casual? Low magic high magic small stories big stories death and levels and positions and RP guidelines and builds and options—

    But in my opinion, this is just the symptom of the bigger problem...

    The Bigger Problem: The server has no direction.

    Why did you add a recall stone?

    I don’t doubt it was hotly debated. I’m sure there was a vocal number of players who directly protested its existence. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the final nail in the coffin for a few players. And I’m sure that you knew that there would be this response when it was added?

    So why did you add a recall stone?

    If I can hazard an obvious guess why, it was to cut down the amount of time spent traveling back to Peltarch. This was a problem when I was still playing, all the new high level content was so far away that it would take hours to complete it. And half of the trip was just making your way back. It actually had a pretty direct effect on population too, a player would see 10 people online, log on and then find out they were all far far out in the Rawlins. They knew they wouldn’t be seeing anything for a few hours, so they’d just log off. Adding a recall stone cuts out the most boring, feels bad part of adventuring, it saved people’s time, it made people able to interact with new log ins easier. Adding a recall stone was a good solution to the problem of content being so far away from the starting area.

    But why is the content so far from the starting area?

    This is another obvious answer. Of course it’s far away. Progressing difficulty is just how these things work. NWN PWs tend to be best described as West Marches campaigns. The idea being that the players have their hometurf on the east side of the map, and then they can explore the entire map as they choose, but the further west they go the more dangerous it gets. To get to the level 8 area you must pass through the level 4 area. To get to the level 18 area you must pass through the level 12 area. Narfell sticking with this progression style is also a good idea. So of course, if you’re going to go to the content for the level 15+ players, you have to slog through the content for the level 2s (redundant areas from when Narfell started at 2), then the 4s, then the 6s, then 8s, 10s, 12s, and so on and so forth. Again, this is just how things work, and if you want there to be content for the level 15+ players, this is generally how things will just be.

    But why is there content for the level 15s?

    There is a very clear trend in the responses in this thread and none of it is surprising to me. It was very clear to me when I was still playing. The majority of Narfell’s players are people who have been around since the old days, and they liked the old days better. I mean hell, have you guys been keeping track of how many “Time travel back to the OLD SERVER MAPS” plots there have been? There’s been a lot. In fact while talking to people and reexamining some maps I learned that there was one recently. Is it simple nostalgia? Very, very likely. But frankly, I think there might be truth to it. Back in the old days, when the level cap was lower, when the Norwick Crypts was the place to go for XP. When the Cold Caves was the long trip. When there was no RLG loot, when everyone had these eclectic mixes of DM made loot with stories and histories attached, when the threats players faced felt tangible and real.

    But people kept progressing, people kept leveling up, and those people wanted content. The narrative that there was “Nothing to do” became the problem to overcome, so new content was made to satisfy them.

    But then, when players made new PCs, the gap between a new PC and the average PC became even wider. New PCs couldn’t take part in the events with old PCs and get geared up. They needed something to catch up with.

    RLG Loot. Now creatures just dropped the items they needed, now players can catch up. XP gain rates were increased, the starting level was increased from 2, players kept progressing, they kept growing. But then, they KEPT GROWING, the economy was in shambles, everyone had millions of gold. Quick, a way to get rid of gold. Paid TRs, no one wants to lose XP, they’ll pay a massive premium to make sure they don’t.

    But now players weren’t losing XP, they begun growing FASTER. Worse still, now there was a direct motivation to hoard millions of gold, we need it to pay for TRs.

    Every new feature that’s been added to Narfell since I started playing again has been a bandaid put over a problem. But now the server’s run out of bandaids, and the doctor’s saying that the problem got infected a while ago and a more severe treatment is required. You really should have gone to see the doctor earlier before it got this bad.

    Solution: Oh boy.

    The recurring solution I’m seeing people make is rollbacks and revamps to the system. Slow the level curve, cap the RLG items. In my opinion, this is just another bandaid. PCs are already high level, and they already have the +3 RLG items. They still have their millions of gold.

    What’s more, from the RP side. The scale has already far surpassed the kind of things that happened on “Old Narfell”. The idea of the main threat of a plot being a Dracolich hanging out in the Lost City is quaint OOC. IC the response to such a thing is “Well let’s just go kill it then, whatever.” The players have already done these kinds of things, and they’ve trained themselves to be flippant about it. I still cringe thinking about players passionlessly rattle off the different kinds of dragons they’ve killed.

    Pandora’s box is open, you don’t get to put all that shit back in.

    I have two solutions. I think both would need to be done to really fix the problem, but the first one is, again in my opinion, a decent enough bandaid.

    DM team, and players. Get your ducks in a row. Figure out what Narfell is. Is it high magic? Is it low magic? Is Peltarch an isolated fishing village or is it the grand trade hub of the east? Are the roads safe for travel, or is anything past Peltarch a deathtrap for everyone.

    Are you an RP server, focused on telling stories, or are you a PvE server, focused on grinding XP and loot?

    I’m going to continue talking like the correct choice is to be an low magic RP server focused on stories, because it’s clear from responses in the thread that this is what a lot of players want. It’s what I want.

    For the DMs, this will mean needing to put foot down. You will need to communicate, work together, rein in anyone who goes against the new status quo. The constant one upping of previous plots will need to stop. You’ll need to find the confidence in your skills as story tellers to make lower stakes stories interesting.

    For the players this will mean needing to pick up what the DMs put down. To lower your expectations of your character and their place in the world. To treat the bandit as a credible threat, even if you’ve killed 100s of them. If you can’t find things in the world for your character to be interested and challenged by, it might be time to put the character away and move on from them, they’ve reached the end of their life cycle as a character and there is nothing wrong with that.

    `

    But let’s be honest. That’s not going to fix things. They’ll still have the gold, and the loot, and the XP. The story about the nobleman’s sick daughter who needs a rare herb to be cured will still be solved by a player going “I can just cast heal on them.” You can’t go back to a +2 Sword being a legendary item if Jarnathan had a +3 sword randomly drop while killing giants.

    The only way to really solve this problem is to wipe the board. Delete the server vault. Restart the economy and forcibly retire all of the long term characters. I would go as far as to say players shouldn’t be allowed to remake their characters in the rebooted server. This has been suggested so many times in the past, and it’s been extremely unpopular every time but I think it might be the time for it.

    So that’s it, I’m done. I know this was long, I bet not many people even finished reading it. I wouldn’t be surprised if some people saw my username and threw this post out based solely on that.

    When I came back to this server just for a laugh I didn’t expect to be drawn back in as much as I was. I really had a wonderful time. I’ve heard a lot of rumours about what’s going on here lately, and the potential, final, result it could have. I’ll be entirely honest, my first instinct was schadenfreude. But typing all of this out has really reminded me how much I cared, and still care, about this place. I want it to keep going, I want it to continue be a place where people can tell stories together.

    Tl;dr: Problem: The past 4 years of the server have been reactions to what came before and the server’s become bloated with problems for it.

    Solution: Reassess what things exist for, change what’s needed to fit a more unified vision.

    Better solution: Do that, but also do a total reset of characters so that this can be done without the baggage of what came before.

  • The Halfling Defence League

    Karni has said basically all I have to say on this. I like all you guys and like spending time with you and hope we can get things back on whatever track they need to be on for us to enjoy doing this stuff with each other again.


  • I think I just watched too many of the groups I liked to work with die a planned death. The Norwick Militia, the Farscouts, The dwarven Hold, The Legion. I understand that things have their time but most all of these seemed to die due to actions outside of the immediate group. Players who felt jilted, left. DM controlled NPC's taking place of PCs, DM focused groups lost DMs who cared about them and on and on.

    Once the player base got so small and DM focus shrunk and shifted it lost its luster.

    I like gathering, crafting and enchanting, my focus always turns to that and that just sort of stalled and died. The crafting always seemed off and then basically became useless with RLG and shop supplied items. The fishing system never got past minimal stages. The herb gathering and cooking system kept getting pushed off further and further.

    I think the focus on fleshing out more and more territory and maps was nice for a visit for explore xp and maybe even combat xp. But as far as RP xp, really added nothing. When quick travel came along, travel guides to the new territories died, one more RP thing dead.

    I tried several servers after Narfell, there are a lot out there vying for a limited number of players. I settled on one with a larger player base and enough focus on hunting, gathering, fishing and crafting to make me happy. I have enough people to interact with and create RP. In the year or more I have been there I think I have not been involved in any DM events, most everything I do is player driven.

    As far as suggestions for improvement, I do not really know what to say. With limited Dev's I would look at a serious player discussion on where that focus needs to be and the Dev interests. If they do not align then maybe there is a deeper issue.

    No one is getting paid for any of this. It is a game done out of love for the genre. I have been on a server that died before, and it is painful to see. The worst part is when player and staff start lashing out at themselves and each other and the bleeding starts. The focus of every discussion needs to be about Joy and Fun.

    Sorry, it was a lot of words and probably little help, but it is a game and I would rather spend my time doing what is fun for me.


  • When I first started playing, once upon a long time ago, I admit to feeling nervous. I wasn't really a gamer - in fact in many ways I'm still not - and for me to set virtual foot onto an online roleplaying server was a big step. I fumbled about with a first character that didn't take wings, before I found one that stuck and magic started to happen. The reason why I stayed, despite the discomfort of my initial flailing about, was that I was met by such friendliness and understanding.

    That's one important aspect of what I think Narfell should be: friendly and welcoming. It's been likened to an old pair of slippers before, and comfortable is a strong positive to me.

    The magic, then - the magic that got me hooked and made me stay for more years than I care to count? It's of course the immersion into a living, collaborative narrative. Narfell was a story we told together, players and DMs, and at the best of times both sides might be surprised at how it all turned out. Moreso for the player side, of course, which is one of several reasons why I've never wanted to become a DM. I like not knowing, and instead living events out through my character's lens. I've laughed, cursed, panicked and cried behind my screen and I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

    What makes Narfell special to me is also that its stories have such longevity - even when I started it was a server with history, where many different DMs and players had left their unique mark on its pages. There were stories to discover from its past, both on the forums and IG through talking to long-lived characters; stories that sometimes played a part in active plots, and some that were still ongoing. That gave the world depths and believability to me, and also spurred me on to write my own tales down. Actually, to a large part I've Narfell to thank for freeing me from years of writer's block, another of my personal reasons to be fond of this place.

    All the rest - the items, the levels, the XP-progression and death system, the monsters and the maps - is always going to be secondary in my mind to the first, so I'll leave them be for now. My final note will be this, instead: when in the past I'd be frustrated that all major events inevitably happened outside my playing hours, at an unlucky death or something else IG, I'd repeat to myself: "This is what I do for fun."

    Playing a game should be ~fun~ and that's something I feel is slipping. This includes both players and DMs, because we need one another for the real magic to happen. Apologies both for being wordy and for not following the format, but I feel it's important to spell out what I see as the heart and soul of the Narfell I love.


  • I’ve been asked by a couple of people to put my thoughts to words regarding Narfell – What it is, what it was, and why I left. This forum entry provided that opportunity.

    I want to say that all of this is just my opinion. I make no illusions about being right, or that what I see as problems are really problems at all. This community has wide and varying opinions on what it finds fun, and I openly admit that what I find fun might be in the minority.

    Stories

    That’s what I’m here for. The stories. The struggle of the everyday person, whether it be adventurer, soldier, thief, wizard or merchant in the Narfell and surrounding regions of Faerun. The players are the standouts in this crowd. They have their own unique stories to tell. While the players are responsible for telling their character’s stories, the DMs are responsible for telling the stories of the greater whole and weaving the players’ stories into it.

    That’s the hallmark of a good PnP campaign. Narfell should be that, but on a greater scale with more flexibility. Instead of one DM with a handful of players, there are multiple DMs and more players on different schedules.

    I want to feel as if I’m in one of the episodes of Carnival Row or Game of Thrones (early seasons). That’s why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the players that prefer to solo during busy times. It’s their preference, and it’s what they find fun. For me, if you’re going to solo regularly, there’s far finer fruit for story opportunities in a single player game. Narfell (for me) is about community, even if it’s just one other player. The Hound and Arya’s relationship, dialogue and adventures in Game of Thrones were epic. I want that with other players.

    This theme and concept segways into everything else I’m going to touch on below.

    Levels

    My view on levels somewhat mirrors the guides for 3e, 3.5e and 5e

    1-4: These are the levels for most commoners. Players who start in this range are people with aspirations. The commoners with hope to do something different with their lives. They want to join the militia, adventure, see the world and what have you.

    5-8: These are the levels for most soldiers, accomplished bandits, and adventures with some experience. The upper levels in this range would be the sub-leaders, the sergeants and folks that commoners and lower levels in this range look for guidance. You have experience.

    9-12: These are the leaders. The lieutenants and captains of the military. The bandit leaders. The adventurers of some renown. When a political leader, general or merchant clan is looking to solve something, they go to YOU and your band of merry men to get it done. You have a reputation of being skilled and exceptional in your field.

    13-16: This is the stuff legends are made of. These levels are for the legendary warriors and wizards of the realm in which they reside. You are not only sought after by leaders of city states and nations, but by regions beyond. You’ve seen and done things that would give commoners nightmares. Stories are told around the fire about the deeds you’ve accomplished.

    17+: You are known the world over. Your name is spoken across Faerun. You are in the same league as Drizzt Do’Urden (19th) and others

    As it stands, leveling is far, far too fast in Narfell. The tiers above are blown through in weeks without having a chance to earn the story behind them. My character Sebrienne reached level 15 in 3 months. I ground out the levels quickly with her in order to make valuable contributions to the level 15+ characters she was hanging around with. There are players who have reached level 17+ in less than 6 months that I barely heard of. While others my not agree, I find that a travesty.

    Level 17+ should be legendary. They should have done amazing things to have their name resound throughout to kingdoms, bringing hope or fear to the masses. At the very least, they should be legendary amongst the other regional adventurers. They should know them by story or song.

    That is no longer true. Higher levels simply you to grind out certain areas ad nauseum. Coin is plentiful enough that recklessness can be overcome with it easily.

    Suggestions

    • Remove TR and make death meaningful again. However, instead of losing 90% XP for that level, remove 50% instead. Death is death. Make the price fixed. It’s shallow enough to overcome a once in a while mistake or bad luck event, but heavy enough that recklessness and stupidity will exact a price.

    • I prefer a cap of level 16, but I know that’s not popular. If we are going to allow up to 20, ensure that characters who reach loftier levels have spent the time to earn it. I honestly don’t feel that grinding area X ad nauseum earns it. If I meet a level 17 cleric, I should know by sight his name, what god he represents and who he is. He should be a scion of his faith. The same for any other class and what they represent. Sharply steepen the cost for levels 13+. I would even go so far as to put back the daily XP cap as unpopular as it was. I rather liked the level spread when I was playing Autumn in 2018 and 2019 and it stopped someone spending 12 hours grinding an area over and over.

    • Lower the XP granted by exploration. It’s not only inconsistent, but too high in some areas. Seeing new landscape might give you a new perspective in life, but it won’t make you fight better or cast better spells.

    Gold and Equipment

    Gold is too plentiful. In the current environment having a lot of gold helps with the TR situation, which has become a crutch for many. Unless there is a very expensive enchanting option, that much gold isn’t needed if you remove TR.

    Suggestions

    • Make the RLG items unsellable except in player run stores to other adventurers, or sharply reduce how much coin is obtained by selling them to vendors.

    The other thing I wanted to touch on is +3 equipment. It was supposed to be rare. But when it becomes available for a high level character to get one every time they conquer an area, and they can do it repeatedly, suddenly they’re not rare.

    I don’t have an answer to that, other than make them somehow harder to get. You can’t make them gated to events because not everyone in Narfell has the time or availability to play in them. Perhaps somehow making them only available with a series of skills or talents that require a group effort. Perhaps when a 12+ point item is called for, a +3 item is only generated a very small fraction of the time.

    DMs

    For a variety of reasons, it never sat well with me that DMs are allowed to play characters in the same server they are telling stories. While players and DMs both tell stories, their responsibilities and access to information are far different. There is too much opportunity to do something shady and lose trust of the player base. Once you lose that trust, it’s gone forever. There have been DMs on this server that I’ve entrusted implicitly, and others … not so much.

    Suggestion

    Play or DM. Take your pick. If you get tired of DMing, and I know all too well that’s a real thing, then take a break. If you prefer to play, then resign your DM privileges for a minimum set time period … say 6 months, and play. Then re-apply for DM privileges again when you want to go back.

    A DM wouldn’t even consider playing their own character in their own PnP setting. As a DM, I occasionally had an NPC or two accompany the group for a mission. Sometimes, the players would hire a tracker or someone with a specific esoteric skill. I would create a character for those missions. Sometimes, they would be part of some grand scenario. But they were always disposable, even if sometimes players got attached to them.

    The other thing I wanted to touch on is favoritism. It’s a touchy subject, but I know it’s caused a rift in the player base.

    When you’re a target of it, it’s intoxicating and hard to refuse. I know, because I’ve been the subject of it with a few of my characters. People, DMs or players might have favorite players and characters, but as a DM with a larger responsibility it’s important to spread the attention around.

    I’ve seen players, good players with intriguing characters get largely ignored. Every player deserves some kind of attention at some point, even if it’s just something little that lasts 30 minutes. As a DM it’s fun to see good roleplay by players and characters you enjoy. They write stories about the scenarios you create. They offer feedback and make you laugh or cry. Of course you want to spend time with them, you’re only human. But I see so much opportunity lost. It doesn’t even have to be an event focused on their character. It can be a little thing like when Rika spent time with a kid watching an egg hatch. It’s funny how I remember that.

    As a DM, focusing on your favorite players all the time creates resentment. I know, because I hear about it from others.

    That’s about it for now. For those that have made it this far I apologize for the wall of text. The reason I’m no longer playing is that for me, Narfell has lost its roots and I was not having fun. It’s no longer a low to moderate level RP server. It’s an MMO with an RP afterthought with plentiful level 15+. If that’s what players want, I think that’s great. I hope they’re happy and wish them well, but it’s not why I started playing 20+ years ago.

    Thanks for reading


  • We have a whole two weeks to continue gathering information here. So far I'm encouraged by what I've seen, the majority (overwhelming majority) of responses have come from a staff level, from DMs and Devs, as well as former DMs. I'm looking forward to reading some thoughts from a solely player perspective.

    Thanks for taking part those who have so far, and feel free to keep spit-balling here - you're never limited to one single post.


  • These are my thoughts and in no way reflect the team as a whole.

    @Gonnar

    Concern: Leveling is too easy and that:

    • Diminishes the motivation that comes from progressing in the game.
    • Highly affects the RP that comes from slower(ish) advancing, rather than going from farmer Bob to OP hero smasher of worlds in 2 months without any character development.

    Solution: Remove TR, fix the XP curve.

    • 100% XP to level 12.
    • 75% combat XP from 12 to 15.
    • 50% combat XP from level 15 to 18.
    • 15% combat XP and 50% exploration XP from 18 to 20.

    (Not ideal cause it would make newer PC’s and specially new players have a harder time catching up)

    Alternative solution: TR stays, XP Curve stays BUT open Epic Levels with:

    • 0% combat XP once you reach level 20.
    • Cap it at level 22 or 23 (I’d need to check when it becomes overwhelming, it would still take years anyway to get there).
    • A few feats are restricted/nerfed.
    • I too believe leveling is too easy and the loss of level 1-4 was a major building point on character development. I would be in favour of once again starting at level one, having an easier leveling period from 1-12. After that, a steep decline. I would be more in favour of..
    • 100% XP to level 12.
    • 50% combat XP from 12 to 14.
    • 25% combat XP from level 14 to 16.
    • 10% combat XP from 16 to 18.
    • 5% combat XP from 19-20.

    • Also, I would be in favour of a reset of characters through a new Build plot. Everyone is on the same playing field again. Even if you wanted to remake your character, it would be at level 1.

    • This would again set the average character level from 12-14 mostly. I feel this actually makes it easier on DM's for balancing events. Something I have issues with it myself as a DM.

    @its_a_fire

    Apologies, for I am wordy.

    Concern: When staff attention switched to prioritizing PvE 3-4 years ago, Narfell accelerated the trend of losing what made it special -
    which is storytelling. Leveling, exploration, and magic items have become disconnected from morality-testing, character-defining stories. > Player gaming skills have become mechanically rewarding while character actions have become virtually meaningless (with a few
    exceptions). Recent changes to the module have little to do with PC choices, and the in-game, in-character status-quo has largely been > unchallenged. There is less a sense of being a part of something, much less a living world, much less a D&D campaign with an
    impressively ambitious scope.

    (N.B., there are obviously significant exceptions to this overall trend, and I hope those exceptions know that I appreciate their efforts!)

    Solution:

    Everyone: Recognize that in order to see change, a change in our own behaviors/expectations is required.
    Players: There’s the usual, yes, to make extra efforts to be inviting, to post on the forum, encourage discussions and action on motivations, goals, character growth, etc. Also accept and support other players in accepting consequences, change, and loss because these are necessary.
    DMs: Experiment - especially with scheduling and stories. Respond enthusiastically to character initiatives, giving quicker in-game feedback. Let PCs break things and let there be consequences. Recognize risks other than death and gold loss. Recognize rewards other than loot and XP. Test character bonds and morals. Acknowledge that returning to the status quo is an unsatisfying ending.

    • I agree with this as well. I enjoy our PvE type of stuff as well, but I do believe it has taken away the focus of what the server should be. I think this ties in a lot with Gonnar's comments. Dungeons for level 1-12 are great (Which is what I like to focus on), after that, when you reach a survivable level on the server, the focus should shift to RP. This also makes it easier to DM events that aren't so insane and world changing, imo.

    • I feel the forums have been left behind. It used to be a great place for information IG that you might have missed. Great stories. Now we have moved to Discord and all the interesting RP aspects of the forums are being lost. RP aspects that greatly affect or inform a PC in the IG world at times.

    • I believe consequences being a thing for PC's has been forgotten. It is seen more as punishment when it should be seen as an opportunity for character growth. The same can be said for change and loss, as you posted above. 100% agree.

    • As for the DM part. I am guilty of not experimenting more. I have always been a fan of half story/half combat type plots or events. I find them more difficult to do in a balanced way for the party or individual PC's. This all ties in to the power creep of the server. I would gladly try to do more to correct this on my end.

    @KingCreeper

    RLG system is out of control and the acquisition of +3 items has become trivial.

    A rollback to +2 soft cap with enchanting / crafting options.

    • I would be absolutely fine with a rollback to power levels of items and PC's/NPC's.

    My personal concern is well enough documented and I've been vocal about it. But as an example.

    Concern: I have a tremendous issue with the current death system, 180 days is far too long.

    Solution: A straight reduction in the duration, and/or a method in game by which it can be reduced (outside of waiting it out, obviously).

    • I don't exactly agree with you on this? Beyond the TR aspect, not sure what your thoughts are on the death system itself. I do believe a change is needed to the death system. I feel death is meaningless on Narfell now.

    • Death system should be a straight 200 sheet per level lost for Raise Dead and Resurrection. So even as a level 12, you would lose 2400 sheet if you died. The 200 might be a bit steep, but I like starting a bit higher and moving down if the need arises. Also, some type of penalty to stats for a short period, like a few hours. It represents the drain of dying. I am guilty, as many are of making death seem so trivial.

    • Full PK available. If you are killed by a player, you should lose only 100 XP and a cooldown period after you are killed, to let possible tempers cool. This will tie in with some things below.

    @Gonnar .....

    • TR shouldn't be removed. However, I think the cost should be a flat rate and on top of that flat rate, you need a specific item IG that can be found out in the environment itself (At a low low drop rate -- 0.1%--in higher area loot), that you can only hold ONE of and will be used whether you use a PC or an NPC to TR you. Once it is used, you would need to find another. No hoarding them, make them non-drop. I feel TR is overused, even with the increased cost.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------_
    A few ideas mechanically that I've always been in favour of.

    PrC's, Races

    Concern
    The concern I have is that we pick mechanical perfection over enjoying things the game can offer. I wish had the ability to change some of these things myself, I just don't.

    Solution

    • Open up the remaining PrC's. Some might need a bit of tweaking, but offering up fun classes to play that are already provided with the game seems secondary to the worry of possible balance issues imo.
    • Offer up special races that you can earn IG. Some of them might be monsters, but so long as a player realizes that they will be attacked (And should be attacked), let people play them.

    Recall stone

    Concern

    The concern again, is that we seem to worry more about regulating the use of it, instead of just having fun with the added feature. It was one of the best additions to the game that I've seen. It encourages people to go out and explore the world.

    Solution

    I think the use limit should be either lowered drastically or removed. Who cares if people use it once an hour? At least they are doing things and having fun.

    Spells

    Concern

    There is so much more out there that can be done with these types of things.

    Solution

    I think a great focus would be to add/modify spells. A wider range of choices for casters. The Assassin and Blackguard spell additions were fabulous. Most important would be adding in more RP spells that are actually represented IG, or also a travel system that includes magical spells like teleport, word of recall, dimensional door, planar travel, treestride, etc.

    Expansion

    Concern

    The concern is obviously that we have expanded massively in maps and monsters. I have done this as well and I don't regret, nor will I say it is a bad thing. However, I think we have come to the point where we need to fill in the gaps now.

    Solution

    This one I can help with and I try to. Fill in the gaps on maps. Not the same monsters everywhere. Make maps more memorable with special features. Small things like this can be great.
    Also, make it so players can do things IG, like make shrines to their gods in places that seem fitting and that need to be maintained. A small bit of RP that can be done at any time.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------_

    I'm sure I will think up some more things. Especially those regarding DM'ing itself.


  • I’ve hemmed and hawed about what to say, if to say. I believe there are a lot of genuine issues and concerns that come from a love and care of the game and wanting to play in a Public server with drop in play. Stuff like accessibility, accountability, transparency, balance, activity options, request turnaround, community outreach, just to scrape the surface.

    The more I’ve dwelt, the more I look at all my analyses and arguments of these individual problems and possible solutions and what people would Actually Want and are also good for long term server health and the health of players and staff when we remember this is a game we play in our free time. It all traces back to the same root problem of identity, and I’ll say it again.

    Form follows function. What kind of server are we??? Really? And who is our target audience? More people? Small group? Mulchers? Broad appeal more people? Nostalgia Presence? Decades of required investment or the possibility to be involved as a casual? Low magic high magic small stories big stories death and levels and positions and RP guidelines and builds and options—

    Because all of our decisions and changes should be made on, and solutions reveal themselves, on that principle. Our mech and map layout should follow the wants of our players. Stories should follow the wants and comfort levels of our players. Policy should follow the wants of our players. Who do we want to attract and what is our end goal? Because it’s completely fine to not be the target audience, even the suggestions I vehemently disagree with personally can come from a valid place based on a perceived identity and direction- but stagnating in the middle like we are now isn’t sustainable if I’m understanding the vibes correctly.

    So. The open question on the open letter is as a majority playerbase, what do we want out of this server. Because all the other answers and options and potential new players we attract will be a lot easier to parse when we have something concrete to market ourselves as

  • G

    This one concern in particular has bugged me for a while. There's other points I'd rather keep to myself for now at least.

    Concern: Leveling is too easy and that:

    • Diminishes the motivation that comes from progressing in the game.
    • Highly affects the RP that comes from slower(ish) advancing, rather than going from farmer Bob to OP hero smasher of worlds in 2 months without any character development.

    Solution: Remove TR, fix the XP curve.

    • 100% XP to level 12.
    • 75% combat XP from 12 to 15.
    • 50% combat XP from level 15 to 18.
    • 15% combat XP and 50% exploration XP from 18 to 20.

    (Not ideal cause it would make newer PC’s and specially new players have a harder time catching up)

    Alternative solution: TR stays, XP Curve stays BUT open Epic Levels with:

    • 0% combat XP once you reach level 20.
    • Cap it at level 22 or 23 (I’d need to check when it becomes overwhelming, it would still take years anyway to get there).
    • A few feats are restricted/nerfed.