Losing my mind trying to think of a new ranged character
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PBS is 5feet, Sneak attack is 15 feet.
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@b8dc10e050=Fraoch:
PBS applies anytime you're in sneak attack range - you really do not have to be that close.
I got so excited when you said this! I tested it out though. Turns out you do have to be closer.
The "X" closet to the dummy is where PB shot +1 AB and damage kicks in. The second "X" from the dummy is where Sneak Attack kicks in. About half way between the 1st X and the dummy is where you start getting smacked. The "X"s are 5ms apart.
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It's matter of taste. I say succeeding in Narfell is matter of survivability, and the best build in my mind is not the one that does most damage, is the one that adapts best to any hazards. I've got two characters sitting at very high level that have never seen the Fugue (or well, one of them did see the Fugue once, but it was inevitable :P), and I've refused time after time to give up on defensive abilities just to get some extra damage. It's worked out for me, but that's not necessarily what works out for others.
What's bad with bard? That at level 10 bard you'll have 50 HP. At level 10 Fighter you'll have 110 (Same as Gonnar's Dex comparison, I'm assuming here 10 Con for both characters - and that as Human Fighter you can easily afford Toughness feat, while as elven bard you can't, and you have -2 Con). That's over double the HP. Nothing hurts as badly as being level 10+ and getting one-shot to the Fugue by anything of around your level that wields a x3 multiplier weapon. I've seen Meril go through this with my own eyes at his level 14 or so, and it sucks big time. Ogre Berserker presents you the amazing world of spending another year climbing back that level you hard-earned with your squishy bard ass.
As Fighter you also toss a Full Plate into the equation, and with one level of rogue for the Tumble you're set. The buffs? That's what potions are for! I did say the Fighter build is reliant on not being a cheap-ass with consumables.
Good thing of bard is you do get your +3 Weapon as well. That's a big plus actually. And you get a nice Bardsong to boost your whole party, which is also really nice. Fighter will have feats to take whatever you ever want. Can even get +2 to saving throws or Resist Energy feats to increase survivability even further.
As said, matter of taste! Of course, one may enjoy more the Ranger RP, or the Bard RP and stuff. That's fine. I assume that whatever character you make, you're giving it a solid RP background and you intend to RP your heart out with it, otherwise you'd be playing in an Action server, not here - for that reason I'm not factoring the RP in.
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An elven bard will have same AB than a pure fighter with a bow.
With a Dex of +0 (to make maths easy) you have at level 10 with a pure fighter:+10BAB +0dex = +10AB
with a bard you have:
+7BAB+2dex/+3dex(buff)+1bardsong = +10AB
Why take bard over fighter? Skillpoints.
Aiming to a real build at lvl 12, which is not really hard to reach nowadays, and i'll give it +1items:
Fighter level 12 archer with base 18dex:
AB: +17 (3apr)
AC: 27 with full plate +shield+all +1items
Damage: 1-8+4 (+2str +2weapon spec)Level 12 bard archer with base 18 dex:
AB: +14 (2apr) -> +16/+17 (cats grace) -> +18/+19 (bardsong) -> +20/+21 warcry-> +22/+23 (curse song on your enemies)
AC: 30 with full plate+shield+all +1 items ā> +32 with bardsong
Damage: 1-8+4(str cause you have bulls)+2bardsong +2 warcry
In short, the bard version is just better because it's more versatile.
If you don't like bards, then go Ranger over fighter. Rangers have buffs, evasion and toughness, an animal companion and more skill points and tumble too. GET IT.
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Assuming you mean my elven ranger, she was built for AA and for a long time was pure archer. It was only at level 13 that I finally added expertise to the mix out of embarrassment at having to hide beind PCs half her level - that along with looking for other ways to increase her armour class.
Had IE briefly, soon died because of it. Your average ranger quite frankly doesn't have the saves/discipline to be a tank that their party can rely on.
Mine is a dex-based character with archery feats who lacks weapon finesse. Archer, not melee. When tanking it is out of necessity. Normally down to (a) they're more capable of it than others in the party (b) They're considerably higher in level/hit points than the others
It's laggy or there's a high chance of losing control of your character.Edit: Never mind. I think you meant Lanakai's one who was indeed built for melee.
Rangers are fun. Stealth is great, detect is great. Tracking rocks. PBS applies anytime you're in sneak attack range - you really do not have to be that close. Rapid Shot is fabulous - four attacks a round at level 11? Yes please! I remember the first time I saw two attacks in the first flurry. It was Cotton, in the Rawlins, with a bow, and it was highly impressive
I don't dispute that self-buffing cleric makes the best archer, but I love the versatility you get with a ranger archer.
Eluriel isn't pure, but she has 11 ranger levels. And there's certainly days when I feel she's a 'monster' because of her versatility.
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@1e62fb7173=Mooncandies:
what ye said
Gear reliant. Heavily gear reliant, the bow is pure victory.
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@01b38e0b5a=KingCreeper:
Masochist in me says build a pure Ranger. You'll regret not being a Cleric when you end up in DM events where your +2's don't count for diddly. Or simply walking through the Rawlins to encounter (pierce resistant monstersā¦ pretty much all of them).
Gear is absolutely everything. A low STR score is going to affect your damage output anyway. The only feasible work-around would be to farm endlessly for GP so that you can afford magic arrows. Which most things you'd like to use them on are immune to those damage types thus rendering your archer almost entirely useless. And don't forget the strength bonus, you'll be next to worthless in melee and possibly need to carry a shield and heavier suit of armour for those close encounters.
The smart choice would be to go whichever combination allows you to buff most. Greater Magic Weapon is an absolute necessity. The irony is that by the time you have the spell there'll be nothing left to challenge you too much anyway. But hey, free self-buffs.
You got a slashing bow noob!
Well, yeah, seriously though I know what you mean. 3.5 rangers are amazing, 3.0 rangers are for the most part bunk unless you build them melee with expertise (one of the 'elven group' I remember tanked stuff in the UD like that)
I'm still a little lost on what I want.. but you all helped a lot with gettin the gears grinding and narrowing some stuff down.
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Worth mentioning that despite all of the above the Ranger class is fun to RP, whatever direction you decide to go with that.
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Masochist in me says build a pure Ranger. You'll regret not being a Cleric when you end up in DM events where your +2's don't count for diddly. Or simply walking through the Rawlins to encounter (pierce resistant monstersā¦ pretty much all of them).
Gear is absolutely everything. A low STR score is going to affect your damage output anyway. The only feasible work-around would be to farm endlessly for GP so that you can afford magic arrows. Which most things you'd like to use them on are immune to those damage types thus rendering your archer almost entirely useless. And don't forget the strength bonus, you'll be next to worthless in melee and possibly need to carry a shield and heavier suit of armour for those close encounters.
The smart choice would be to go whichever combination allows you to buff most. Greater Magic Weapon is an absolute necessity. The irony is that by the time you have the spell there'll be nothing left to challenge you too much anyway. But hey, free self-buffs.
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Marty was a druid/barbarian/rogue. At low levels I absolutely loved playing her.
Small +1, Halfling Throwing+1, +1 from DEX bonus and Druid+2 in natural areas meant that at lower levels she was always hitting stuff. Rogue gave her the ability to actually do a bit of damage. Barbarian level was insanely useful. That little bit of extra speed kept her alive in so many situations where she would normally be dead. And the speed coupled with called shot meant that she could play solo pretty well (a necessity in my play times).
The problem with Marty was that the multiclassing really hurt her when she got to higher levels. Jack of a lot of things but but a master of Jack.
I've always wanted to play a druid/ranger. Marty was almost a druid ranger, but I went for Rogue/druid/barbarian instead. Rubbish for damage but a ranger with the +2 in wilderness areas would hit high AC stuff easily I reckon.
I think for "wow" you're going to do well with a pure rogue. At higher levels the damage you pump out will be unmatched. You'll be squishy, highly relying on party members and heavily dependent on gear, but you'll be a great "gunship" for any "Tank" you go out with. At higher levels you'll be missing out on a couple of points of AB, but when you hit things with a sneak attack they will explode.
Keep in mind that when you're an archer, feats are handy but you can live without them. You want to hit things and you want them to feel it. Everything else is just icing. Point Blank shot is okay, but you need to be so close to get the bonus you're really at risk of getting an attack of op in the face ("Melee" range is 3.5 meters, PB shot range is 5 meters). Its good to negate the -4 for shooting when in Melee - but what the hell are you doing in Melee! If you're in Melee, you're big priority is to get out of melee or to change to a melee weapon, not to keep shooting. It's a prerequisite for rapid shot, but the -2 from rapid shot hurts if you're not a full AB character. Personally I'd rather hit once than miss twice. But hitting someone twice with a sneak attack is sweet!
What I'm saying is that there's a temptation to multiclass for a bit of extra candy, but the benefits you gain from multiclassing are often nothing compared to how "wow" you can be if you go pure class.
EDIT: I actually did use Point Blank a fair bit with Marty. I'd run in and Called shot them a lot hoping that their AB would be reduced enough for the attack of ops not to hit my AC of 18. I did this more for the adrenalin rush. It's not exactly an effective way to fight though.
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Bard.
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I've seen some very effective archers, both rangers, clerics, rogues, bards and mish-mashes of the above - and an arcane archer! Plenty of the suggestions above work just fine, I'll leave the technicalities to those more savvy with that sort of thing than me, though I do have this advice: I wouldn't worry about whether it's been done before, whether there are too many clerics out there, or anything like that. Your character's build isn't what makes it unique, it's what you put into the character in terms of personality. That's the wow factor for me, whenever a character feels real and is able to move me.
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My advice, don't do PrC's. Until the PrC handout process is reconsidered and improved, you are just going to end up frustrated as the quest will never finish and anything you've planned for it just won't happen.
My suggestions:
Fighter4/ClericX Pro: At a potential level 16 it's probably the best pure damage archer build you can achieve. The build also has all around good saving throws and survability thanks to all the buffs you'll get access to. You'll also have a permanent +3 Weapon, which you can't even dream of as non-caster.
Con: It's a late-bloomer. Only starts being competitive after level 11. At level 16 you'll reach your virtual max potential with 7 APR while using Divine Power, Haste and Rapid Shot but it's a looooong way to get there. You'll still be lacking feats to get all you'd like and your ability score spread will be hard to balance since you need decent Strength and Dexterity (at least 13 on each) and as high as possible Wisdom and Charisma. Also sucks that you need 3-4 rounds of pre-casting before any serious combat (Divine Favour, Divine Power, Haste, Divine Might). A lot of the time you won't be given the luxury to prepare that much once the enemies have spotted you.
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Pure Fighter Pro: Steady progression and all around good build. You will have all the feats you need and then more. Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Called Shot, Toughness, Improved Critical... you name it, you got it. This build allows for more flexibility. You can also toss a rogue level somewhere in this build to max the Tumble AC and get some extra Sneak Attack.
Con: Very reliant on consumables to really excel at higher levels, so if you're cheap about using potions or spell crystals, don't even think of it. Very reliant on gear as well, but that's true for every non caster. And you will never have a +3 weapon. Make a caster friend!
Protip: Ranger archer builds are overrated.
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All three of my Narfell characters are archers because I find I prefer the dexterity-based support fighter rather than the tank. But, as you noted, all three are very squishy and don't do a lot of damage per attack. That can be ammended in several ways: Romulus, as a high-level bard, casts GMW on his arrows and uses bard song. Taking rogue levels to gain sneak attack bonuses has worked wonders for other characters, though I haven't tried it myself. Arcane archer is the third way, though you have to be an elf or half-elf.
It's a matter of choice, and I think your role-playing personality has a lot to do with that choice. I'm comfortable with my role in parties as a support person. I find it has stimulated me to add healing, spotting, hiding, and walking silently skills so I can increase my usefullness. Some day maybe I'll build a tank, but I kind of doubt it.
Login: AubreyMaturin
Characters: Romulus Grey, Bard the bowman
Trotter, Spooky halfling ranger
Shesarai, Red-haired cleric of Mystra
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One of the better combinations for an archer is Fighter 4 / Rogue X, but itās been done before. If you want something unique, youāll have to go for a PRC and try for Arcane Archer. That means going for half elf or elf, and working with the DM team to earn it. My recommendation for that is Fighter 4 / Wizard (few levels), then the rest Arcane Archer, if you can manage it.
I played one of the better Archers in Narfell, and you WILL be relegated to a secondary but strong support role. She was everyoneās favorite sidekick. She was able to solo for a long time due to stealth, and was a Fighter / Ranger / Rogue. An Arcane Archer will not have stealth, and you will be somewhat squishy. However, you will be kick-ass with a bow.
The irony is that I went that route, and made a character destined for Arcane Archer. Sheās my lowbie character. You know what? I forgot to make her a half-elf. Sheās human, so now I have to do a rethink.
As far as playing āA Monsterā though, itās not all that itās cracked up to be. All āmonstersā, except for Clerics have weaknesses. My character Maya in her day won the Norwick championship, and was considered one of the best fighters of her day. But to get that, sacrifices had to be made in other areas. Actually, thatās the way I think it should be. Even Clerics have one glaring one, and thatās ādisciplineā. When I used to adventure with Shannon, he was always worried about facing monsters with knockdown or disarm.
Aside from Maya, my characters have never been OMG amazing. Honestly, I find that boring. If you want to make a character like that, take a Barbarian 1 / Cleric X of the war and strength domains, and you will be untouchable at high levels. Youāll be able to solo areas and be an engine of destruction. I actually considered it at one point, but I have too many characters as it stands now.
Also, you have think about what āpowerā means. My most powerful character in Narfell couldnāt solo anything even at level 12, and needed help crossing the Nars from level 6 fighters. But she ā¦
ā¢ Had control of a senator, thus a vote on politics
ā¢ Helped bring down the Gypsy camp
ā¢ Rigged two elections in Peltarch, putting her senator in power and denying another a seat
ā¢ Was the treasurer of Oscura. Since everything over 10k gold needed her direct approval and a 5% cut, she was wealthy and could control what major operations took place in the city
ā¢ Was righteously feared.There are different types of power. It isnāt all about BAB, damage and hit points.
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Problem though is you end up with a pretty low attack bonus doncha? I mean compared to the fighter-ish classes or a buffed cleric?
To elaborate furtherā¦ well yeah, I want a character that can provide "wow" factor.
I'm not sure what stats I should do and whatever, I wasted so many character retirements I don't want something I would regret. So far, the only ones I haven't regretted thus far are Moon, Maki, and Noli (who I utterly regret retiring deeply, I was going through a very bad phase in life)
I'm so indecisive
My personal issue too is well... all these years I've seen varying degree of player skill. I have seen characters that just devastate and own everything, and characters that fall flat, but people still love playing them.
Mine have always been on the average to good scale, but never amazing. Moon got to where she was since I had a lot of time on my hands, and roleplay was, she was very charming. For awhile, she was the best 'active' axe wielder. During this time, shannon's patch came out, and enemies started taunting. At this point, her power was scaled down greatly.
I had Joanna, who was my first real "game breaker", I was able to solo 2nd floor crypts at level 7 with her while in dire tiger form with 1 monk x druid. So they made it clear that dire forms not allowed. Ok, thats fine, I'll wait to level 13.
Then the monk 4 rule got implemented, and this destroyed my character, turning a powerful character into hot garbage. Other characters actually benefitted from the nerfs or were nerfed a lot less thanks to the characters who play them being a very high level or had better alternatives, but not myself.
...I guess the point I'm trying to make (and forgive my frustration) is I want a monster, but something unique, something that does well in any situation, and won't get beaten with the nerf stick.
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The question, I guess, is what kind of ranged character do you want to be? Do you want to be the one who can devastate an enemy at range, or the kind that ties down the battlefield for your allies, or a mix of both?
I'd actually suggest a bard to play an archer, as an alternative to a cleric. Bardsong enhances your ranged (or melee) damage, you can enchant as you wish, you get cats grace as well as greater magic weapon as options, and all you need is a feat if you wish to use a bow (instead of a crossbow).
Furthermore, you're always useful to the party with your bardsong and high lore and other good skills.
