Give aways
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Just to clarify my statement a bit,
I would buy as much gear as I could from crafters…if:
They are accessible
The process is not overly complex
I have a chance to afford their goods
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@926d5dda88=Emerwyn:
Besides, there is nothing in the rules against selling a crafted item to a friend, and then donating them an amount of gold to help them up… let's say, about the same amount of gold that the crafted item costs.
Actually … I would say thats just a clever way of breaking the rules.
Being in the crafting business is painful enough as it is without it being made pointless by folks who eliminate demand for your goods by giving away uber stuff. That's not fun. And cruising through an area that should be challenging for you but now isn't because your pal just gave you some uber gear for nothing ... that's fun?
I don't mean to sound judgemental. Some folks do things for fun that I'll never get. As long as our fun isn't pulling the plug on somebody else's fun it's all good.
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Heated debates are always good–they are one of the only ways that any organization can grow.
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… well all this... only b/c my question posted. I just wanted to know if I perma kill my PCs can I give my PCs stuff away in a will. Based on the above, I can, they dont have anything that will overthrow any balance, however, if uncertain speak w DM
By that I think this thread can be closed I never intended it to be a "heated" debate
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I agree with this statement ^
In addition to my comments above, I give a +1 to this observation.
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My own thoughts on this was initially to just say that the rules are fine and in no need of alteration - when in doubt, just ask a DM. With the right reasoning, a solution that works out for both player and overall balance can nearly always be agreed upon. I still think this holds more or less true, but - it strikes me that the overall tendency to want better equipment, faster, has to do with the smaller server population, and fewer characters of low level to party with. Having fun on Narfell, to me, is all about interaction, and ~of course~ you want to adventure and go places with your friends, who most often happen to be higher in level than yourself. Mundane equipment is fine if you hang out with lowbies to dare the swamps or goblin woods, but not if your buddies keep going to more dangerous places. Perhaps a more generous view on what constitutes balance would be something to consider, in that light.
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Taking this opportunity to advertise the suggestions thread!
Go update your posts to include whatever you're learning from this heated discussion.
Disclaimer: Please continue to post your own opinions without references to anyone elses!
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Speaking as a relatively new player, and one who the last thing I want to do is get caught up in the Politics of the server, let me briefly say this….
What do 99% of all RP games include in their systems....
Advancement.
It is part of the game, and one of the driving forces why people play. I see it as two sides of a coin, RP and Advancement. You need both. Without one you have mindless grinding and power-gaming with no purpose other than to obtain "Stuff". Without the other you have a glorified chat room where everyone talks with a funny hat on.
That being said, making things challenging is great, it means a greater sense of accomplishment when the task is completed. However, making things IMPOSSIBLE, just leads to people feeling like no matter what they can never achieve their goals.
Example: My spellsword wants armor he can cast in without a huge chance of spell failure. To do this he has to get someone to craft the armor for him (or learn to craft himself), the price for a set of masterworked steel plate is 13,000 gp! Thats only 3K less than a house. Assuming I can farm enough monsters to get this money to pay for the armor, I still have to then enchant it, for more money, submit my enchanting request, hope I make my roll or lose the item, and then wait for a DM to give me the item IG.
In the end how much more powerful will I be? My AC will be the same, as will my HP and attack bonus. Monsters will still be able to hit and wound me the same as before. True now I can cast a fireball while wearing my armor and only have it fail 1 in every 4 times....but how much more powerful does that make me? So after the expenditure of many many hours of play to earn 13000 + gp to pay for the armor and enchantment, and the time spent waiting to receive the item does it justify my increase in power?
I say no, it just makes me want to walk away from the idea of my Character Concept, because it is so much work to be able to have one little perk. I do not want things on a silver platter, but I do want at least a 50/50 chance of being able to obtain them.
Every hero needs a reward, now and then.
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@e862dd9ea1=Robyn:
A long time ago I put forth an idea for resetting Narfell but keeping player’s characters. Part of that included resetting the items. It involved a disaster, a portal, and some heroics by the players. I actually though the DM’s were going to do it when Norwick was overrun, and was actually disappointed when it wasn’t. The thread is somewhere, lost in time.
I remember this idea, and would welcome it still. Some rift/weave implosion/whatever that renders all magical items as junk. Wipe the slate clean, and set some DM policies about what can, should, and will be dropped–hopefully erring on the side of very rare and well-earned +1 items.
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It’s always been my opinion that everything should be treated in character. If you’re a philanthropist, and like giving stuff away, then so be it. If you’re a merchant who likes hoarding items, and then selling them at a profit, then by all means do that instead. If I have a level 10 character, who begins a strong, loving relationship with a level 4 character, I don’t think there should be a rule, OOC or otherwise that tells me what I can’t gift to him or her. Consequently, if one character seduces another powerful one for favors, items, or power, that should be OK too. It’s not twinking, it’s role playing.
I understand the game balance mechanics of it. Yes, it can be upsetting (aka jealousy) to find out that 4th level character got a set of well crafted armor that took you real life years to get and you didn’t get until level 10. I am all for keeping some semblance of balance. But my solutions is –
Make good items rare enough that people think twice before giving them away
Right now, between prolific crafters, adventurers, and generous DMs, coupled with a declining server population, you have a glut of items lying around in persistent storage and player inventories. Without overhauling everything or putting unrealistic restrictions on transactions, you’re not going to solve it.
A long time ago I put forth an idea for resetting Narfell but keeping player’s characters. Part of that included resetting the items. It involved a disaster, a portal, and some heroics by the players. I actually though the DM’s were going to do it when Norwick was overrun, and was actually disappointed when it wasn’t. The thread is somewhere, lost in time.
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@1491af1ba0=Clan:
So, knowing the rules, you just avoid them and do what you want–which ultimately effects the balance of a server in real way? Shame on you. And people wonder why the balance of this server is out of whack.
I think its clear that the DM drops of the last few years have really unbalanced everything. It should go back to potions and gold... consumables... make people earn their magic items the hard way.
And the world didn't end when I did it either. We're losing players now due to attrition, interest, and schism between what people want and what they're getting, not because I'm handing out gear that just means that the thing that can already kill you on a 10 now has to roll at least 12. I have never had enough gold to pay crafting plate prices despite years of play, and if a DM wants to take me to task for it I've got a little button under my post where they can do so. Between the IG Union rules, the OOC Union-favoring standarized prices, the time and effort involved, whether you're grinding on mining and smithing or murdering millions of Kuo Toa for their knives, that is a game I do not want to play. I want my paladin to go on quests, to defend the weak, to save princesses, to battle epic foes, and not get waxed in the process unless it's really cool. I want my wizard to unravel the mysteries of the universe, and to use that 32 Intelligence score for something other than blowing up zombies and casting Hold Monster on Skin Dancers with a 40% chance of success.
And no one's dropped bubkiss for my wizard in an event since Summer of '11. The few scrolls I picked up (Mass Haste and Bigby's Forceful Hand, two 6th Level numbers) were IC gifts. Not even a wand that wasn't full of fffing cantrips. (Note I did pick up a Ring of Clear thought but can't recall when or if it was bought/traded for, so I'll note that as the exception that disproves for fair measure). Pretty much everything I do see dropped these days is potions, arrows, and those god damn Helm of the Fools people think are so hilarious. When I do see a 4-7th level scroll…it's because someone sold it to Hemrod for likely less than 500. Benji threw Jester a +1 Scale Mail bone...the moment I stopped playing a wizard. Oh, and if you're lucky, a pile of like 3000 gold split 10 ways. If that's your idea of unbalanced...
The biggest and baddest thing any of my characters ever did never had anything to do with his items. Or a roll.
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I don't even have real crafter characters, but I know I enjoy when I do log on, and I don't pity myself because other newer characters got to level 15 faster than Rith, or got better items.
Whenever I log on Narfell I'll try to have fun myself and if a cleric that was created 8 months ago has more XP or gear than Rith it doesn't hinder my ability to have fun in any way.
I don't get why newer players and characters need to be inflicted with whatever pains you think you went through in archaic times. Those times changed.
In fact, if there is an issue in Narfell is that the "big fish" is all stablished and eternally glorified, and now there's no way to move them aside since they think themselves the owners of the place and change and evolution doesn't take place, neither IC or OOC.
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@977a18d8ba=Emerwyn:
This, and that, and that other thing. All adds to the "let's cockblock fun with our own view of what should and what shouldn't be".
Besides, there is nothing in the rules against selling a crafted item to a friend, and then donating them an amount of gold to help them up… let's say, about the same amount of gold that the crafted item costs.
Right, so work around the rules in whatever way you want to have your fun. Bottom line is that you know you are working around the rules. Enjoy.
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This, and that, and that other thing. All adds to the "let's cockblock fun with our own view of what should and what shouldn't be".
Besides, there is nothing in the rules against selling a crafted item to a friend, and then donating them an amount of gold to help them up… let's say, about the same amount of gold that the crafted item costs.
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@20951b74d5=Emerwyn:
Think some people care too much about this "balance" crap (their own view of it anyway) and too little about having fun.
And there's still wonder why the server keeps losing players.
I guess one person's "crap" can be another person's "fun."
And if people are leaving Narfell over THIS issue then I say good riddance. If anything, its this power-gaming mentality of giving away uber equipment to PC's that havent yet reached the maturity where they need it–and the imbalance that it brings--that is bringing Narfell down.
Enjoy the game, power-game if thats how you want to have fun, just dont impose that on everyone else.
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Think some people care too much about this "balance" crap (their own view of it anyway) and too little about having fun.
And there's still wonder why the server keeps losing players.
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@d655c84cc6:
And Vander, you don't want this drifting over to that thread. Per the rules of it anyway we want to avoid directly addressing another player's claims/suggestions, so if we're going to discuss and argue over something, we may as well do it somewhere else and let the bulletpoint suggestion thread get on with being it's bad self. Trust me when I say there's a stockpile of vitriol waiting to explode over it. I should know; I'm the one doing the stockpiling.
Touché
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@3415f52ba1=cardamon:
I give away crap when it makes sense for a character and when I just don't want to hold onto the crap. Suits of platemail just taking up space, too valuable to toss but which cannot purchased by the ones that need them? I would give them out like candy if I could. As it is, the one time someone gave me a suit of steel they got nothing but crap for it and I had to give it back, so then next time I didn't tell anyone about it.
If it's in character I don't care who gives what and who gets what. Val's running around with a cloak of mass comprehend languages, multiple people got their first half plate +1 from me, afew got +1 full plate, and the one time tried to dump some non-mw brass plate I got nothing but grief for it. Oh, and I still got that Positive Energy lady sword because I haven't seen a sunite come along yet. Moment I do it's theirs.
And Vander, you don't want this drifting over to that thread. Per the rules of it anyway we want to avoid directly addressing another player's claims/suggestions, so if we're going to discuss and argue over something, we may as well do it somewhere else and let the bulletpoint suggestion thread get on with being it's bad self. Trust me when I say there's a stockpile of vitriol waiting to explode over it. I should know; I'm the one doing the stockpiling.
So, knowing the rules, you just avoid them and do what you want–which ultimately effects the balance of a server in real way? Shame on you. And people wonder why the balance of this server is out of whack.
I think its clear that the DM drops of the last few years have really unbalanced everything. It should go back to potions and gold... consumables... make people earn their magic items the hard way.
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I give away crap when it makes sense for a character and when I just don't want to hold onto the crap. Suits of platemail just taking up space, too valuable to toss but which cannot purchased by the ones that need them? I would give them out like candy if I could. As it is, the one time someone gave me a suit of steel they got nothing but crap for it and I had to give it back, so then next time I didn't tell anyone about it.
If it's in character I don't care who gives what and who gets what. Val's running around with a cloak of mass comprehend languages, multiple people got their first half plate +1 from me, afew got +1 full plate, and the one time tried to dump some non-mw brass plate I got nothing but grief for it. Oh, and I still got that Positive Energy lady sword because I haven't seen a sunite come along yet. Moment I do it's theirs.
And Vander, you don't want this drifting over to that thread. Per the rules of it anyway we want to avoid directly addressing another player's claims/suggestions, so if we're going to discuss and argue over something, we may as well do it somewhere else and let the bulletpoint suggestion thread get on with being it's bad self. Trust me when I say there's a stockpile of vitriol waiting to explode over it. I should know; I'm the one doing the stockpiling.
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Yes wonderboy it was
. With some sensitivity and handled in a mature way (heaven knows thats difficult enough ) i dont think we need to worry about dead pcs overflowing narfell with cool stuff.I understand your point on planed DM drops, hence my original question about limits. However, in my example none of my PCs have any cool stuff what they carry they bought from crafters by hard work earned gold (nothing bought on credit id like to add as i see that happening) except for Celia (she has a nice ring)…. Oh an My has a knife. So most of it is harmless and wont make a difference anyway.
It would be a nice token of appreciation to be able to give away your stuff to the closests pcs friends. If someone has something out of the ordinary i am sure the player be aware maybe it could be reviewed or put out of the will.
Ha! None of my ladies are married nor have they children, thats kind make a will interestin RP wise if they had anything of value that is... Hehe
Oh it would be cool if Peltarch had a laywer to one we could hand in wills, or any other settlements. But he wouldnt charge as much as they usually do
