Evil in Name only
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Fun bump time cause I'm board.
There's a number of potential "Evil" that has existed throughout the time of Narfell. I'd say it falls into four sections:
Category one - IN YOUR FACE
First you have your archtypal "Villan" evil. These are your mad geniuses, your charismatic zealots, and criminal masterminds. These are the PC's that have no problem letting you know they're evil, letting you know they're doing evil things, letting yo usee evil things, and reveling in the fact of bringing others in to do evil with them. Vinessa of early times comes to mind, you could put Corde there as well.
On the heels of that you have the diabolical evil. Again, these are people pretty much everyone KNOWS is evil, but unlike the previous ones they don't do as much of their "truly" evil stuff publicly save for when they absolutely know they can get away with it and have a means of "justifying" it. Most of the proof of their truly vile things happens long after the fact or are assumptions that may border on near fact for some of the most stringent investigators. Syne and Aspera would both probably fall in here.
The third one of this is a hybrid with a later category and I'll do it on its own in a bit.
Category Two - Pretty sure you're evil…..
First up, you have your self interested evil. These are your types that are greedy, completely self serving, have no care about anyone else save for when it benefits them, have no issues lying, has no issues helping out evil or good as long as it serves them, etc. While arguably "neutral" in some peoples minds, the evil ones of this group are those that tend to be doing things FAR more often wholey and singularly for their own self interest rather than at times simply because its the "right thing to do", which to me shifts that balance away from "neutral".
You could say a great deal of the Black Sails could fit into this. That said, because its a subjective call and often times nothing is so glaring that it warrants the rarely given alignment points, many can justify this out as neutral, not delving into that.
Along with that you have your "I'm just who I am" evil. These are your people that do evil cause frankly its easier and have no qualms with it, no real need to justify, are completely honest with themselves, but don't really have any need or desire to just go out and be evil for evils sake like the first two of the "IN YOUR FACE" ones are. These are people who could seem like your average run of the mill adventurer till you chase down a gang member one day to question him only to have the person immedietely jab a dagger into the guys knee, slit his throat when he's done talking cause they don't want a witness, and then grabs his money pouch as they casually set up to go off with you and make use of the information as you stand there slack jawed.
This also includes your people that are evil for the sake of it being fun. Who do evil things and have no qualms about it because damn its entertaining and at times profitable so who cares. Say someone dressing extorting money from adventurers hunting out in the forest because you realized your new outfit looks ridiculous but kind of like a druid so it'd be funny to try. Gildor would be a great example (and you know, actually did that).
Category Three - You're…evil?
Hidden evil. Such a wonderful thing, hidden evil is different from the diabolical. Diabolical wants you to know they're evil, LIKES that you know they're evil, because its all the more frustrating that you can't do anything about it. Hidden evil doesn't want you even sniffing it, and if you sniff it they'll go out of their way to make sure to throw you off track or discredit you at every turn. What seperates them from "evil in name only" is that they actually really do do a ton of evil stuff in game, they just make sure no one see's or knows about it (Or, alternatively, does the alternative persona thing and no one knows person 1 = person 2). Yolande works here
"Evil in name only" would fit here too. These are people whose alignment is evil…and are friendly with everyone, help out good people and gods just because, have no issues doing things without any self interest, will risk their lives to save people, will do something cause its the right thing to do...but um, are really really evil. O.o
Category Four - Its not alignment, its a perception
The final category of evil that gets thrown around in game doesn't actually necessarily have to be "evil". There's two forms of evil really you could find in the D&D world. There's the "OMG the paladin just detected evil on you and passed out!" kind of evil and then there's the "I think that Koreth is evil" kind of evil.
The first kind of evil, the ALIGNMENT evil, is all those discussed above. The second one is essentially perception evil. Strangely, its often still tied to alignment…but more often than not to the chaotic/law access.
For example, a chaotic good character whose a free spirit and believes freedom is essential may view a lawful neutral character who routinely bends and manipulates the law to their advantage and to their power in ways that are, to the CG person, abusive and arbitrary could be viewed by that CG as "evil". Why? Because that LN person is far enough away from the CG guys mentality that he APPEARS as if he is Tyrannical even though a real Banite Tyrant may look at the LN guy and laugh at how inefficient he is by even bothering with the guise of fairness and outside input.
In situations like that the "OMG You're evil" is less about alignment, and more about perception.
Likewise, a paladin could very easily look at a CN person that has no qualms sneaking into houses to steal some things to get some supplies to go save a Tyran, or roughing up a person who refuses to talk, or who freely lies to the authorities after he's killed a few gang members who he knew just got off at a rigged trial as someone whose "Evil". On the flip side, a CE person is looking at the CN guy wondering why he wastes his talents constantly justifying only doing it when its the "right thing" when he should realize anytime it helps you in any way its the "right thing" to do.
I think a LOT of times IC when people are calling someone else evil its based on this. Additionally, OOC I think you get this to a point as well depending on what various players OOCly feel is more "evil" than others. Some may see tyrannical use of the law to be abusive and flaunt your power as a clearly LE type of thing while others may see the justifications that go along with it enough to justify it being "neutral".
That's the horrendous thing about alignment. There's no clear cut answer, and from memory as a DM due to the fact there's no clear cut answer there's almost nothing people seem to get annoyed with worse than alignment points THEY don't agree with. I've seen people get more upset about 3 evil points than a high level death honestly.
Interlude - Hybrid
Going to give the hybrid before the fourth category. The Hybrid is "I openly/semi-openly follow an evil god" evil. These are a hybrid because they usually are some other form of evil as well. Some can be neutral, some don't really do much else that's evil, some are just horribly self interested. Yet all generally get declared evil. Why? Because they're actively following and supporting an evil god. And typically, especially with adventurer's, people are going to assume you're not following a god cause you know, the colors looked cool
Usually its believed you agree with their dogma, or you want to advance their purpose, or you represent something found within their portfolio.Its one of those things, you could feed kittens and give gold to charities and spread flowers and love to everyone. But if you then go "And I follow a god whose the patron of murderers and liers, and whose dogma includes "Death to all those who oppose him"…well, people are going to start thinking there must be more to those actions than they may've before.
Ah...yeah, rambled on for a bit there. Sorry
Been a while since I just sat and typed and thought on this kind of stuff. Now, with all that said, all those kinds of evils can be very fun and rewarding. All are various difficulties as well. The Category 1 ones are some of the absolute hardest to pull off successful on narf, as is the Hidden Evil from Category 3 done well, but if you manage it it can be highly rewarding. At the same time, some of the Category 2 ones can be very fun for both the player and those around them if done right as it can create interesting and also realistic (in terms of the world) situations that can lead to some great RP
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Well considering I played a open follower of Lolth for a time with ought any player ever killing her. It actually surprised the crap out of the me that she survived. It can work, just requires lots of running!
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Back on topic, what I've found, playing both an evil PC and DMing for the evil bunch a lot, are two things.
1. If you want to play around all of Narfell, covert evil works the best, and often very good. You have to be covert evil if you want to survive on the surface, and you can be very succesful with it.
2. Blatant evil does work fine, but only in Oscura and its surrounds. This one is pretty obvious
Often I hear people say blatant evil never works, but I've seen it work quite well within the confines of Oscura.
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Where that has a more profound effect, as I understand, is with divine spellcasters. A divine spellcaster cannot cast a spell of the opposite alignment to his deity's (or is it his own?).
Of course, I do think that D&D's alignment rules make it that an "Evil" spell is considered an Evil act.
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Not exactly. A single summon monster scroll can be good, or evil.. depends on the creature the user produces with it. The scroll itself is not aligned in either way.
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@9371e22768=Wywernywin:
While this is sidetracking the topic…
@9371e22768=d20srd.org:
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
… so, if you summon evil thing, you're using evil spell.
so its the scroll itself, not the caster?
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While this is sidetracking the topic…
@f868f6bfb9=d20srd.org:
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
… so, if you summon evil thing, you're using evil spell.
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Hmmm, now that you mention it I'm sure I've heard rumors of Dwin flying… :twisted: stir stir
Evil is great fun, evil with a twist is just plain glorious. I'm not a huge fan of sob stories, which everyone (character) seems to have, but to somehow twist that into the will to do evil is fun to watch, it's fun to do, and it's fun to hear about. In a lot of ways, in my personal opinion, a truly evil character should be just as challenging but as rewarding to play as a truly good Paladin. Narfell could do with more PC villains.
Subtle or openly devious, there's always a place in my heart for evil.
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Do they know Dwin isn’t a mage?
See that’s a big assumption right there, I mean in many fantasy literature, isn’t the vile sorcerer or demon worshiper often the most innocuous character, hiding behind a well-planned front. So again, do they know definitely he isn’t a mage?So seeing a character summon a fiend, my first thought IC wouldn’t be, “Ah there’s one them damn rogues at it again”, it would be “Foul demonologist!” ::Smite::
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It's funny. There's been people who have remarked to Tindra (on more than one occasion) how Dwin is untrustworthy, greedy, and doesn't care about anybody.
She tends to disagree with most of it. At least the untrustworthy and doesn't care parts. They just don't approach him the right way (and no, I'm not gonna post how best to approach Dwin, find out IG
).
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@f99bebf1a3=EodenValmer:
Actually sounds like cause and effect in an IC fashion, metagaing would be to know that Dwin was a rogue and as such could use UMD….
Sudden knowledge of class and the features if said class is far greater a metagaming feat over “I saw X summon a Y!”
lol, i think most PC's would know Dwin is not a mage or a bard by trade… that leaves only a few options, no?
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Dwin nor I have any idea how these things work.
he read a scroll, something appears. if people are going to make assumptions based on that, then so be it.
the fact remains that Dwin's alignment isnt evil.
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Summoning fiends out in the open in front of everybody isn't metagaming… if you're summoning evil things, then one would assume you're evil.
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Actually sounds like cause and effect in an IC fashion, metagaing would be to know that Dwin was a rogue and as such could use UMD….
Sudden knowledge of class and the features if said class is far greater a metagaming feat over “I saw X summon a Y!”
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@fcbbbac46a=SummonerX:
@fcbbbac46a=Clan:
Perception is everything…
Dwin is treated by many (mostly older players) like an evil scoundrel, yet when challenged to cite anything evil he's ever done, no one can
Well, I did see Dwin summon a fiendish animal using a summon scroll right in front of everybody… that gives away that he's pretty much evil.
Sounds like some meta-gaming to me
especially since Dwin isn't evil. Rogues can use scroll, doesn't mean they know what's always going to happen when they do.
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@3e3fb125a6=RYM:
@3e3fb125a6=Teringer:
Humorously, nobody can cite anything evil that my banite has done either, but the label has gotten more strife from both sides of the table than I care to even start on!
Ya mean using spells that blow up heads aint evil? <.<
They're only "evil" if they use the spells on -good- guys. Nobody cares if you blow the head off of some Derro, I mean honestly. ANYBODY can do that.
Summoner just thinks all Banites are evil because they wear black and chuckle darkly and give infernal nods….
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@fabd6fe2a5=Clan:
Perception is everything…
Dwin is treated by many (mostly older players) like an evil scoundrel, yet when challenged to cite anything evil he's ever done, no one can
Well, I did see Dwin summon a fiendish animal using a summon scroll right in front of everybody… that gives away that he's pretty much evil.
As for the banites, dont get me started
. Plenty of things to indicate they are evil. (one being that each of them has the "evil enough" achievement... all of them smirk at least 50 times a day)My chaotic evil fighter doesn't really hide his deeds. He's done plenty of evil in front of a live audience, and doesn't care who sees. I would call him a "successful" evil mostly because no one has acted against him as of yet. Though being secretive tends to let you be evil longer in the long run. So if you're just starting out and want to be evil... better to hide it until you plant yourself in a safe group, level, position of power, etc etc..
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There is defonatly plenty of sly evil out there, most of which I'm sure I have no idea about. It is defonatly the most effective way to make a truly evil PC.
However, there is something rewarding about walking into town and having everyone and there mother react to you. Such reputation often leads to goodie goodie PC's not "letting" you travel with them, which can be a major downer if that is your only Pc or your main PC.
It would be difficult for some charicters, say a well established Banite, to try and play the secretive evil. So this mantel often falls uppon us.
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@61b9f70070:
Perception is everything in narfell. To be a successfull evil charicter all you really have to do is get everyone to think your evil, then do nothing wrong ever.
No, no. Do wrong and never get caught. Personally, I hate having a character attributed to doing all these cool things, and never having actually done them.
There are many times I miss playing Yolande. She helped bring down the Gypsy camp, and her guilt just slid off of her because so many people helped defend her. “Why oh why?”, people would say, “Would she bring down the Gypsy camp, and then fight and give her life to get it back?” Well, there were reasons. Perfectly solid, evil, IC reasons. It was fun playing a character who sacrificed and manipulated other people. My only failure was the difficulty killing other PC’s. It’s a rather fine line you have to walk between having fun and letting others have fun too. There are three PC’s Yolande should have killed outright, and made darn sure they never came back. She had both means and motive. However, I tended to stick with permanently harming NPCs, and manipulating PC’s to further Yolande’s goals.
No. For me it’s far more fun to BE evil, slide out from others accusations, and look good doing it. Because in the end, nobody is entirely sure what horrible things you’ve REALLY done…and that scares them.
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@1a6a9bbb1e=Grak01:
@1a6a9bbb1e=Clan:
Perception is everything…
Dwin is treated by many (mostly older players) like an evil scoundrel, yet when challenged to cite anything evil he's ever done, no one can :).
cough cough Norwick infamous land grab cough cough:))
…again, citing something "evil"?
