3. Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2

Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2


  • Hi All,

    As someone who was closely following the developments these posts sparked, I'm curious where things are currently at with server direction. I haven't seen much shared aside from the occasional admin post that says what's in the works, though doesn't include any sort of time frame, nor follow ups. It has been over two weeks since the voting registration period closed, and I'm still unclear on what exactly will be voted on, or when, or how it'll be implemented. Can we, as a community, get an update on where the discussions are at, and what we can expect to see over the course of the next week or two?

    1 Reply
  • G

    @wouldbebard

    Just a couple of things on the "Unrelated to the above" part:

    [Disclaimer for wouldbebard, just my opinion, doens't mean I'm right, and I hope I don't come off as passive-agressive to you or argumentative. I love you a lot <3]

    In order to provide challenge to higher levels you do not require to make hordes of creatures or make aboleths/dracoliches a common thing, at all.
    I believe it's the mindset here, that only player PC's are leveling up. In the same fashion there's humans/elves/etc that reach level 20, there can be NPC human/elves that reach level 20, and so they'd be in equal conditions when fighting the PC's. In fact they already exist in the DM spawner cause I created them.
    As long as things are laid out in the Narfell map progressively (so that a level 10 doesn't face a level 20 spawn by accident) it shouldn't be a problem.
    As a DM, also, I've never had a problem challenging high level PC's in my events without needing balors/dragons type of spawns. One just has to learn how to, I suppose.

    Your idea also seems to be based on the premise that the server gets a full reset, or else you would have to delevel people's PC's. And that generally doesn't sit well with players. (Yes, I do have PC's that would need deleveled and I'm not particularly happy with the idea either, eventhough that wouldn't make me stop playing, probably).

    More than downing the top levels I would slow down the level up curve.
    It took me 4 years of playing an awful amount of hours to get to level 17 with María. I think that's reasonably slow that you wouldn't need to worry much about cramping the top levels. Specially if you take out the TR.
    Nowadays you can get a character to level 16 within a month, with 0 DM events XP, and without the help of any other player's characters. THAT is what needs to be adressed.


  • As the team has responded with the directions they're considering, I feel it appropriate to add the spitballs I omitted in my previous post, in regards to the division of labour and how much the community asks of our DM team.

    In general:

    • The reinstatement of Player Guides would be a great thing, taking the roll of mediating off their shoulders.

    • Leaving the mechanical direction of the server entirely in the hands of its developers and player representatives also seems a good division.
      Afaik, our devs are our testers. Please consider letting the representatives go wild on new/changed mechanics. This will take some workload off the dev shoulders, and provide more views on a feature's balance.

    In regards to future story-centric rolls:

    • Head of Story: A role that does not necessarily run plots often, or at all. This role would write the seasonal story arc of the server, where other DMs write episodes or scenes, by comparison.
      The Head of Story would be responsible for creating factions (or accepting those put forth by other DMs) and determining where they are in terms of size, influence and power compared to other factions, what their relations are with other factions are and ensuring this is respected.
      This role remains aware of the plots of other DMs, figures out where those stand in the grand scheme of things, weaves them together into the progression of their season and uses them as a base for the next, suggesting changes to the module based on these.

    • Plot Nexus: Another role that need not run plots often or at all. A role that works closely with the Head of story, that takes the time to read the plots of other DMs and points out any internal conflicts in the story, or conflicts with the plots of other DMs. Also offers suggestions to work around this.
      I don't know if it's common practice for DMs to write up their plots behind the scenes, determining their villains, strengths, motivations and goals. The rewards for success or the consequences for failure. If not, I believe they should (barring one offs, little skits, etc.).
      I can imagine not every DM reads them, as they are also players and don't want to spoil it for themselves. The Plot Nexus is the role that should read them and then help solve the issues.

    Unrelated to the above:

    I've heard more players express their desired level ranges. I would again suggest to keep it below 20, and preferably well below, but for more than just mechanical reasons.

    I would keep it in the 16 range because of the implied level of strength.

    A single level 16-20 character is strong enough to give any ruler pause. A party of 2 to 6 level 20s can change the face of Toril. Past level 20, they can affect the entire crystal sphere.
    This is all fine in a PnP campaign, where there's only about 6 players and none of what they do becomes canon unless the DM decides to make it part of future campaigns.

    Imagine the scale of what 10 level 16-23s can do over time. 15 of them. 20 of them. 30 PCs of level 16-23 (or Hells, level 30). Because over a long enough time frame, that is the numbers you will be dealing with (obviously hoping our playerbase will increase).

    You would have to turn exceedingly rare monsters into mobs, allowing them to regularly face things from storm giants to dracoliches to aboleths.
    Alternatively, you would have to crank up regular mobs to eleven, making hordes of orcs, or armies of bandits somehow strong enough to challenge a dozen end game adventurers.
    It's one of the things I agree with Kayleb/Albion on.
    What are monsters that strong doing in a backwater hole like Narfell? They could be conquering any of Faerûn's cities.
    A third option is making the world more powerful, having regular guards be level 12+ and diminishing PC power by comparison. That then cheapens the amount of power you've attained, though.
    And that's the mobs themselves. The one upping of previous storylines and the villain decay will be a pain for DMs to deal with.

    I'm not saying it can't work, mind. If we were Eberron, I'd buy it. If we were Spelljammers, or we were located in Sigil. There's settings that allow for this sort of thing more easily.
    Still, if we want that for Narfell, some thought should be given to how that works. At some point, it would become an enemy whose numbers are practically limitless. Outsiders, Oozes, mindless Undead. There's options, but they need careful consideration.

    G
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    Registered Voters

    Hi all

    (Please excuse the length of the message and my awkward English… I am French)

    My 2 CPs on the current discussion…

    GENERAL THOUGHTS
    Present discussion takes place in a community, ie. a diversity of people/roles/interests/objectives… nothing new.
    To be more precise, based on my understanding, it is centred on current server/campaign direction/management and it involves a group of players and the server leading team (please take italics as shortcuts usefull for discussion, not more), although the whole community is concerned and participating.
    Being a member of the community, I consider myself at least partly represented by the group of player even if I have not experienced what they describe, being a rather young returner to narfell (played 20y ago)

    My experience on such a situation (based on playing DD at least weekly since 79, being married twice, raising 3 children and having held high rank in a big institution after starting at the bottom) is that the only positive way out is negociation.
    And by negociation I do not mean a diplomatic way for 2 parties to exchange niceties on their respective pov. I mean finding a solution… so let’s do it!
    If we, as a community, are to find a solution, everyone (servitor included) need to stop defending his pov/position, to get out of the associated trench and be ready to move toward a common ground (probably in the middle range). If we fail to do that, the result will be very WWI-lîke… and end in an attrition war were Narfell players are the casualties.
    One last point still based on experience : I have (and have seen) the concept of BATNA (Better Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) used repetidly as the easiest if not only way to find this common ground.
    (For the sake of understanding, my definition of BATNA would be : « what am I ready to accept if what I really want is not possible ? »)

    WHAT IS A DM (@Seisan request)
    Like most of us, I believe in the DM being a storyteller and an enabler, etc… although I am not sure if he should be a provider when items are concerned…
    please refer to the previous posts, I mostly agree.
    I want to add some (maybe) more personal thoughts

    1. DM is a friend : It may seem vanilla but it’s paramount from my player pov and also for the DM’s one. He is/should-not-be playing against the character but with them. We are all participating is a GAME to have fun.
      As far as I am concerned, he is spending HIS time for us … I like him just for that, if not for any other reason.

    2. DM is a life provider : This is also very important because we are in a rolepaying game and although I acknowledge my grinding optimizer side (pharming since EQ beta so probably lot RL months fulltime, omg), I am never more pleased than seing an npc go out of his usual chat/reaction… because AI is NOT intelligent and I flater myself thinking I like playing smart. If it was not the case I would spend my (whole) gaming time in shoot-them-up.

    3. DM is a referee : Here is one of the most difficult hurddle of being a DM because he is here for fun (his and others), but he is also an enforcer and he has to say no when nobody likes hearing it. Being a referee, he has to be not only impartial but also to have a comprehensive grasp of the rules and more importantly the spirit behind them (nwn engine takes care of most of the litteral rules). He creates/adapts rules on the run according to situation and is required constantly to maintain many things at the same time : consistancy with the campaign setup and other DMing standards, impartiality and equal playing field for all, some sort of previsibility (makes it easier to understand no and accept it), all of that while being creative and fun.

    Given the complexity of this, one (at least I) would wonder how there can be anyone wanting the position, but there are… thx a ton to them

    I hope we’ll find a way … It only depends on us

    May the Force blah blah. Ablamor


  • Alrighty, let's see here...
    I guess I should start with Seisan's inquiry...
    @Seisan : "1. definitions of what is Dungeon Master, and 2. What should a Dungeon Master do?"

    1: My PERSONAL definition is as follows: A Dungeon Master is someone who places down the start of an experience than works with players in the experience of unraveling a story. (I say unravel because a lot of the time there are unplanned things that will happen.) A Dungeon Master is a being that comes up with story ideas whither grand or small, they begin that story and work with their players to make an enjoyable endeavor for all and even work with players to progress personal character arcs that can bring about more stories to be told.

    What I PERSONALY think a "Dungeon Master should do" is as follows: Actively think of ideas for stories grand or small and strive for the grand for it involves many more players, that can also bring about actively reaching out for other DM's to work under them for those grand schemes to actively net every level range, (Brings about Idea concepts for levels 5-20 to all be apart of the same event)
    "A War; Everyone has a part to play, 5-10 go after the bigger underlings to secure that they don't become an issue/threat in the future and prevent these threats from coming back to bite everyone's ass.
    10-15 much the same as the 5-10 range or even more along the lines of commanding the forces/working with the forces in the grander scheme of the war field, give a rise where skill points can raise morale in a positive or negative effect ( @KingCreeper Persuade or that good ol' 'Mac charm of Intimidate, etc...) that could have reasonable consequences or bonuses later.
    15-20; Head tacticians, legion commanders, special forces that infiltrate the deepest parts of enemies lines and take the bulk of the load (Make it heavy, a burden, for the betterment of those that can't yet carry that load so they have futures), go for the head or even the outside sources that protect that head."

    So many options and some of these options can be moved about and fitted for the other level ranges. We could easily have numbers for such an event, and HELLLL if we don't have the numbers it could be the last BIG BANG that could lead to the server reset, while easily enough positions for 4-5 DM's to work in cohesion each with their own slots 5-10 dm, 10-15 dm, 15-20 dm, the dm that micro manages the war aspects player wise and enemy wise, the dm that dispenses the the story points to the other DMs at the head.
    Sorry, I realize I got hella side-tracked drooling over the possibilities. x-x
    But most importantly I think that a Dungeon Master should work towards learning their players characters as much as possibly similar to the players to try and be aware in their planning as much as possible, after all~ in these oh so very lovely forums we have a beautiful access to such things made by our players in "Character Descriptions" and Even looking for some of their personal journals, while also being a possible discord message away.
    But yea these are my thoughts, and there is so much that can be worked off/improved/and heck I don't have all the answers so there's plenty more I haven't said that could be involved as well.
    But I think a very big importance is that a Dungeon Master should be actively working on a plot, even if we moved to terms, I'd think a DM should remain if they are actively working and moving forward with a story and need more time to bring it to a close. Players should also actively try and work with their DMs as much as possible in the fashion of being supportive OOCly but still always remain in-character while playing. (Fun side thought for that war I was drooling for, "The war against the newly formed devinity of 'reset'" ("Reset" is a place holder because so many other words that I can't think of could be better.))

    NOW I can work on to other messages and thoughts; I agree with @Scout-Hen :
    @scout-hen said in Open Letter | To Team and All Pt. 2
    in this post for a large and vast majority, though I do think 30s would be pushing what I feel Narfell should be... I do think it was... Gonnar..? That mentioned the possibility of level 23? I think that COULD be a possibility. But even I am Very iffy with it, though I agree it would Have to be through events to get past 20. (Kinda like a cool after 20 "How many events and work was put in to progress other things" fashion.)

    I personally wouldn't want the reset, and I'd not want even more to go back below level 20, I have good memories of RP with Characters at that level that those players are gone. But outside of that I have near no fond memories, nor feelings of any achievement in or out of character when I was that low in the olden days.
    I also personally don't want the server to have to split, but if that were to be the heavy exchange it would take to make a large amount of people happy, then I Will support their decision because everyone deserves to be satisfied with a game that we all grew with, some more than others.

    I do believe the voting and pulls should be public,
    I do think DMs should have term limits so that inactivity doesn't just give a special and privileged cushion to sit on when they shouldn't have it for not doing any DMing,
    I do think Transparency is important,
    I do think Player guides should come back BUT I do have a slightly different community structure in mind... I think there should be DMs and a Head DM (All active in some way, and DMing ALL voted upon for placements on that side of the table) Player Guides as well as Player Lead THEN the true top being the CLs (Community Leads) that everyone votes in that directs all the aforementioned rolls and 2 CLs would be able to split the work and talk about the following and work in tandem to also help if anything IRL were to come to pass and hinder.
    With Public Voting I easily believe that all this would work like a perfect clockwork after an adjustment period...

    (Gives formal bow) Now I greatly apologize to everyone for my extremely long winded post with plent' of side-tracked drooling, as well as thoughts... Just like I greatly appreciate everyone that was considerate enough to listen to my personal thoughts on these matters, while I do have some more, I won't bog anyone else down with more unless requested.
    (Gives another bow) Again, I, Shade, Thank you all for your very important time as well as consideration, and look forward to when we all move forward towards whichever direction the fates take us...

    ~Shade


  • @seisan

    • For me, the role of DM is that of a narrator. They own nothing, and are attached to nothing. There is no ego. They are the reaction to the characters actions. They may be there to build the stage, and the history… but not the future.
    • DMs are creators of situations. They build a hook, and build a library of challenges and scenes and archetype NPCs that they can improv with. There are no foregone conclusions or expectations. Their NPCs may have goals, but the DM does not.
    • They are also there to create consistency. So that the player understands their situation, but also can intuit reality and their options within it.
    • It’s part of the DM role to get to know how each player has fun. And barring knowing that, ensuring that different types of scenes/scenarios are presented to ensure that everyone has the chance to be the hero.
    • DMs are also world accountants. Repercussion trackers. Tracking how the world changes based on character action and making the characters be accountable to those. This is an area in which a multi-DM and a revolving player base world has a lot of issues.
    • The DM is also the host of the party. Players are their guests. Each has different roles and responsibilities.

    RPGs are communal gatherings of friends. Not a classroom with a teacher and students. Not a set with actors and a director. Not a storyteller with an audience. Not staff and customer. But a group collaboration where one person acts as a guide. Different but equal. That’s what a DM is to me.

    What do I love about DMing? Seeing how the story and characters develop. When I only have a rough idea of the direction to guide them, then the story is new to everyone, including me. And I love seeing others have fun and being creative based on what I set up for them. More work, but for me, more fun.


  • Sorry, I missed the request for input earlier.

    In the NWN genre, (D/G)M to me means:

    1. Someone I can ask assistance of when things go sidewise
    2. Someone that can become the World when things need more than game engine routines
    3. Someone that implements storylines (their own or others)
      (optional). A neutral third party that can arbitrate between players when needed

    I am 56 y/o next month, I started playing AD&D when I was 13. I don't mean to claim that I am a subject matter expert, but I do have a large base of experience on both sides of the PnP table.

    To me, the Game Operations Director is someone that serves their players by being every part of the world that the players are not. In NWN, a lot of those functions are automated. This should leave more time for actively interacting with the PCs. (Note that I am not in a position to allude to what that interaction should be as I am not currently an active player.)

    I think what needs to happen has already been expressed:

    • Collectively decide what vision the server will follow (Central hub, level based zones, etc)
    • Establish how that vision will be enacted (Magic rules, Item rules, etc)
    • Create a playbook for DMs to follow
    • Create a list of things the players need to provide inputs/votes on

    I do not believe that the DM team needs any kind of wipe. The sorts of people that volunteer for these things tend to follow the plan if there is one. If there is not one, they tend to make their own. That is what I see being described here.

    On a separate note, to those people that say DMs serve the server, I say, a Story noone reads is called a failure. There is a wide gap between being a treasure chest and being a DM, and that gap is defined in a player being satisfied with the Story you tell.

    That satisfaction does not require tangible rewards, but it does require that they feel that you didn't waste their time. Time is the only real currency in online gaming and players that feel they are not getting Return on Investment of their time will find somewhere else to spend it.

    Back when the Druidic Circle was still active, there were a lot of goings on where I didn't get great tangible advances, but I was content to be a player in Narfell because I was part of those goings on, and the story I was telling was supported. The highest that character got was level 7, but I still, over a decade later, remember it fondly.

  • The Halfling Defence League

    One thing I'd like to ask a lot of the Narfell 2 folks is: what parts of your vision are you willing to compromise on?

    I'm not asking this as a challenge, but because I think that we should be open to changes if they're needed. It sounds to me like you want at least a partial reset of things and a complete change of DM team, which...honestly, I have a hard time getting behind. The stated vision as it stands seems unsustainable if it's implemented in full. I'm saying this not because of any sort of role here at the server I want to hold on to (I've stepped down as a DM after all), but because if there's one thing I've learned from 15ish years as an on-again off-again staff member here, it's that there are some serious flaws in what you're arguing for.

    That's not to say wanting change isn't valid. That's not to say keep things as they are. That's not to say I think anyone has ulterior motives here.

    I'd have a hard time getting behind the things you guys want that are stated here, but I am curious to hear where each side can find room to negotiate on things. Just taking a stand and saying "We demand this and only this" is...not a move that's going to get you what you want, most of the time. It's not going to get anyone what they want here on either side of this debate, I can guarantee you that.


  • These posts were due to be closed on Friday (October 6th).

    As there are points that are still being addressed (thank you all again for being involved) I feel its appropriate to let it roll on. There's already some discussion going on behind the curtain I've no doubt, and @Seisan has been asking some specific questions.

    I will keep an eye on both topics and if things wind down sufficiently to a point where it looks like everyone has said their piece, asked their asks, or vented what needs venting, I'll go ahead and announce the close.


  • On the role of a DM, I chime in with many others have said, such as KingCreeper, SatansAdvisor, its_a_fire and Gonnar. In particular, I'd like to stress Gonnar's point c), in that the DM does not work for the players. A DM treated like a Pez dispenser to make players dreams come true won't get the only real reward for their job, which is the storyteller's right to explore themes and set scenarios they find interesting. That said, I too enjoy the little one-off adventures created on the fly, and I have admittedly fished around for DMs when the guilds my PCs were part of were still active, suggesting this or that idea that we as a group wished to accomplish. Sometimes with success, other times given a no - and that's just as it should be, we're all equal in that, as Gonnar wrote. We're all here to have fun, and the magic can't happen without mutual and willing participation.

    The ideal to my mind would be to have a variety of DMs, active not only in different time zones, but each with their different styles and preferences, rather than expect one or two to fulfil everyone's idea of fun. We are all different, and that should be okay on the sort of welcoming server I'd like to play on.

    SatansAdvisor's poignant point on the drains of DM-hood is also something important to highlight. Those wondering about DM burnout and inactivity would be wise to look twice at that. Player Guides / Leads used to take some of that pressure off, but having known a few people who took that role on as players, I know it ate away at their fun too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the reason these roles no longer exist is that no players applied for them (and the low player count in general). If I'm mistaken, bringing them back would be something I'd favour.

    I have more to say on what I expect from players, but will hold off on that in case it would derail the current discussion. The main point is already made though, it being a relationship where one cannot exist without the other. We should treat one another right, and that goes for players every bit as much as DMs.


  • @seisan

    I would give you an answer, but it would very closely mimic @its_a_fire 's. Eerily so.
    If I would add one thing, it is to the point of checking in with the players.

    If a DM knows a player was present for an event, and knows their character could take actions, but the player isn't bringing it up, a DM could reach out to the player to see if there's anything they want to do. I have never been shy about messaging DMs when I had questions or ideas, but that isn't true for all of us.
    It might also alleviate the feeling of being ignored if there is an outreach like that. I can imagine players having had ideas in the past, but simply not bringing them up because they felt it would fall on deaf ears.

    There are things we expect our DMs to do that I believe could be divided better. One step at a time, though.

  • J

    I would like to point out that the post by @Preacher is not representative of the group I represent and on behalf of our group I apologize to the individuals called out in the post. We wish to be inclusive and we don't agree with the approach of calling out individuals. We are hoping for productive discussions with Dora and the team to see if there is a way forward on the existing server or not.

    @Preacher Hoping you remove this post.

    @KingCreeper Apologies for posting this after your previous request to me.


  • I'd like to point out, to both sides as it seems we do have two, that no one has ever gotten anything by being rude.

    Any argument can be made moot with the wrong tone.

    Why is the sky blue?

    1. Gases and particles in Earth's atmosphere scatter sunlight in all directions. Blue light is scattered more than other colors because it travels as shorter, smaller waves. This is why we see a blue sky most of the time. (Thanks google)

    2. The sky isn't blue you idiot. You must be real stupid to not know its how light and the atmosphere scatter sunlight. Maybe you should get smarter you dolt.

    One of these answers is an answer, the other is being rude for the sake of making a fight. Pick the right tone or do not contribute because no matter how right or wrong you or someone else may be... you become wrong by being the instigator.


  • @satansadvisor

    I've removed my response. You're probably right, that whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way.


  • @kingcreeper

    I feel this is a rather serious topic, and I'd personally like a modicum of decorum observed. Rudeness and incivility cheapens any argument, and only serves to drive people away from the very table it behooves each of us to sit at.

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  • G

    @preacher I think your post is very out of place here, not by its content but by its forms.
    You should know better.

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  • G

    I apologise in advance, both for the passionate writing and the grammar errors that will flood my post. But I can't speak of Narfell without passion, for it's been a part of my life since I was 16, almost 20 years ago. I've been through everything you can be through in Narfell. A noob, a mechanics pro, a hated-by-DMs player, a loved-by-DMs player, an RPer, an enabler for stories, a random player, a banned player, a PG, a DM, an ex-DM, helped a bit with spawns/maps dev side and I've even be an ex-player when I've taken my year long absence. I've literally seen and lived it all. So trust me when I say that I've seen Narfell from all the possible angles.

    To answer @Seisan : For me a DM is someone that:
    a) is willing to enhance the experience for the players -and themselves- (since both parts need to be having fun on this). Be it with deep long developping stories, with "atmosphere" interventions (possessing NPC's and have them talk, changing the weather, narrating things that are going on, etc..), one off events, etc.
    b) is capable of being fair with players, regardless of you liking some more than others.
    c) is active. If you know you'll be away or inactive for a long period you can step down, and you can always reapply in the future when needed.

    For me a DM is NOT someone that:
    a) comes and goes -> Having rotating DMs is very hurtful for cohesion, coherence and long lasting plots. A DM should be a long term commitment. (Ofc RL comes first tho)
    b) has to dedicate all or most of their time to DMing. This is a free activity and a game, and we're all here to have fun. So as long as they do not only PC, I have no objection in a DM playing their PC's. Furthermore, I think playing your PCs while you are DM helps you a great deal to grasp difficulties and situations PC's have to deal with in the server.
    c) works for the players. A DM devotes himself to the server, not the players. This might be a very unpopular opinion, but as long as it's a game and something people do on their free time and for free, it's clear to me. A DM should be free to say "No" when they don't feel like doing a particular thing, or even when they do not feel like interacting with a particular player, in the same way that a player might not want to interact (as has happened many times) with a particular DM.
    We're all equal here into what rights refer. No one owes anybody nothing, and the only thing that should be expected and requested is to have dedication for the server.
    There should be enough DM's that this freedom to say NO doesn't become an issue by leaving some player(s) unattended.
    d) has to necessarily vote or voice their opinion on policies, balance, etc. I think there should be a different role for those, which doesn't mean a person can't have more than 1 role. Just that being a DM doens't give you instant knowledge on things. I would rather have a doctor patch my leg wound instead of letting a tailor do it, even if the later is used to sewing things, too.

    Overall, that's my take on DMs.

    Now, about the whole Narfell direction thing and all that. I honestly cannot support having an alternate server that is the exact same thing we've worked in for years and years so that some people can have their own vision of the server happen. We're all here together in this, and one would hope that we all work together on this to get it going in a direction that we all can enjoy. Think of it as a relationship, you don't like everything your wife/man does, and you don't like all the things your wife/man does either, yet you (sometimes) share those activities with them, same as they would do with you. Sometimes you have to concede, others you are conceded something, too. And the same applies here to Narfell. I don't like some things, but I enjoy others, and I know the other guy over there likes what I don't and doesn't like what I like... the important thing is to reach a middleground, a point in which everyone that has real interest in the server can concede something and still be able to enjoy the game.
    If that is not the case for someone, I think their solution is not to make a coppy of Narfell, but to look out for a new server they might like more.

    We have things to change, for granted, but those changes should come from unity, and not from splitting.


  • Hey all. Long time no see. Thorin's and Fabian's player here. Thorin who grinded endlessly, gathering coal one by one with a set goal of 5000 pieces just to build a puny wall for the dwarven Hold... Still though it was nothing compared to Verika's tower... I feel RedMenace's struggle, the player must gathered 1 milion coal units over RL decades to build the tower... Anyway...

    I am supporting the creation of a new, obviously better Narfell since its drive is transparency and equal treatment towards players. So I hear about a debate on what is wrong with Narfell. And it triggered some cells in my brain, as if burning them. People got startled by Jazz's announcement of the new Era, as if they were offended. Why? Let's get it straight. There are problem-concepts that are being called out, decades now. Let's see some points, I will quote others' words, I don't care who is who and I don't care if they will be offended or not. I don't give af. After all, the opinion of players who are the root and fuel for favoritism has zero credibility. It's biased. Their need is to defend the current server status to keep enjoying the boons from the CJ DMs (who in majority are also these players). I only care about seeing the new Narfell as a healthy concept:

    Favoritism: I won't even describe what is considered favoritism. Certain DMs and players, at least those who i can remember, like Karni, Flom, RedMenace, Cao, Unholy, Gonnar, Wyvernwyn and Seisan are the root of Narfell's current state. You guys want a virtual pnp for you and you alone. And with some sidekicks that will come and go every now and then to "admire" you. It's prefectly fine. Keep this server version and enjoy the rp between you. But don't try to stop the 30+ people from moving on. They don't want to be part of your inner circle of 5-6 people. Stop starving for attention. You have 3-4 more people to admire you in game.

    Quote time!

    1."It's obvious to me that we do not, in fact, agree on what the problem is. I certainly don't agree with "A New Era for Narfell"s analysis, in which the issue of powercreep in items and levels, the expanded world and current trend towards powergaming and soloing is wholly lacking. Is the implication that if only this one small group who play together on weekends went away, everything would be peachy dory and the masses of old and new players would come welling in?"

    Of course you don't agree. You're the most favored player in Narfell ever, why ruin it for yourself. If favoritism had an single-word to be described would be Karnivorr (and a few others as similar descriptions). And of course if this small group went away would bring players back (toxicity would disappear). The 30+ people who support the new server means exactly this.

    2."It is after all a players right to choose to join in or not"

    Please let's post it again together with what you excluded in the end of your original thoughts: "It is after all a players right to choose to join in or not in the events that are designed with my character as the center of attraction by my personal DM"

    There you have it. Better now.

    3."I guess its difficult for me to get my head around. If Narfell 2 is scoping out all the desires, wants, and motivations from Narfell 1, and so focused on the implementation of the exact same stuff... what are you even doing? Why don't you encourage the 30+ players to come and share in this dialog and fix this?"

    It can't be fixed. Countless players tried to help, give feedback, called out issues only to fall on deaf ears. The problem is not the mod, is it's staff. These people who still pretend to not aknowledge the favoritism, the toxicity. These people are in control of the server. So it's natural that there is no saving for the current Narfell. I could write a whole book with what is wrong with this server. Also, Faerun lore. The team has zero knowledge of Faerun lore... Fish Fort. This troll from the staff's side, and you still don't want to retcon. So for all who read this post, just to know what kind of DM Unholy is and what he did to drive away a team of 5 players with dwarven characters. He built the Fish Fort right next to the dwarven Fort in one night. So the staff considered it normal that the dwarven NPCs would sit comfortably on their ballistas and watch their sworn enemies building their small Fort and doing nothing. That is gentlemen Faerun lore for you... And you KingCreeper asking what is wrong with current Narfell. What drives players away? Really now? Asking such questions insult all the decent players that have passed from Narfell and were driven away from the CJ. Do me a favor and don't ask questions for dummies. And please stop trying to convince people that the two servers coexisting will benefit all. It would only benefit the old narfell and infect the new one.

    1. "Out of curiosity, since I've seen it suggested a few times in these discussions, how would player voting DMs work? Does a certain amount of no votes sink an app? Or is it majority focused, i.e, 10 yes votes beat 9 no votes? Would there be a time limit on the period you can vote, or is it a wait until every active player votes? I suppose these are some of the questions I have on the concept."

    Don't worry. Geniuses like you won't be voted.

    Best of wishes.

    G
    J
     2 Replies

  • Bear in mind that I’ve never DMed in a persistent world, which I recognize as being pretty distinct from the normal course of things, where a DM’s first responsibility is typically hand-selecting a small group of people to invite into their home because they want to eat snacks and tell stories together. I think it’s important to state this at the top not only as a recognition of my inexperience at DMing for such a dramatically atypical game like Narfell, but also because I have frequently seen players lose sight of DMs as people who are also here to have fun, who have limited time, who have personal preferences on genre and playstyles, and who have volunteered their time to do something above and beyond what any of us more typical DMs would do for dear friends at our own RL table. Look at what SatansAdvisor wrote about his Narfell DM experience again, and tell me with a straight face that a PnP group like that wouldn’t dissolve within two sessions. I’m embarrassed to say that I’ve been on the wrong side of this before, and the lesson can’t be stated too often or too bluntly.

    I do have plenty of experience with the tabletop version of DMing though, and have some pretty strong opinions on that which I believe still applies.

    IMHO a DM’s role is…

    • To create in-game problems (leaving the solutions to the PCs). Typically, this means they need to create the primary antagonists or forces that are moving contrary to PCs interests, to be creative and intriguing in these schemes and motivations, and to have a clear plan of what happens if the PCs fail or do nothing.
    • To break that plot into chapters/sessions where PCs have opportunities to shift the story and/or fail in interesting ways. And whereby PCs develop the skills, insights, and tactics they need to end the plot in a satisfying way.
    • To use common elements of storytelling to suggest possible consequences and ticking timers - and if need be, to go above the table and state these things plainly to the players.
    • To create emotional stakes and give life to the world external to PCs.
    • To react to PC choices in ways that consistently push the story forward up to and including changing the course of events significantly.
    • To test PC ideals and bonds.
    • To create opportunities for PC initiative.
    • To occasionally check in with players about their levels satisfaction, to communicate expectations, to ensure that players work together in a spirit of mutual fun even (or especially) when characters have disagreements, and in the spirit of a happy, energized table, to occasionally step above the table to clarify the state of the game.
    • To be cognizant of the rules, to remain alert for cheating, metagaming, and other drags on the table’s fun, and to modify the rules as necessary to ensure the table's fun.
    • To be ready to intervene with players who are disrespectful to others, who are disruptive to mood/tone, who are disengaged or out of character, or who continuously steal the spotlight, and to take charge of disinviting those players when it affects everyone’s enjoyment.

    To be unsubtle for a moment, I want to be clear about what I’ve intentionally left out, like experience/levels, gold, and items. These are storytelling tools, no more no less, and inconsequential without the story of how they were gained or a situation with character-defining stakes in which to use or lose them. You cannot win at D&D, and the game is enjoyable whether you are level one or fourteen, whether you are playing nobility or a street rat.