Robyn last edited by
I’m probably a fool for bringing this up again, but when I put in non-stacking of potions in the “Wish List” on the forums, it opened up an interesting discussion in Discord. For those that aren’t familiar with the topic, I argued that stat boosting potions or spells and Greater stat boosting potions shouldn’t stack.
The arguments that were directed against that were “It weakens fighters”, “All other servers do it”, and “It strengthens casters”. I’m revisiting this to show that it does the opposite.
Let’s take two characters. On one hand, we have Erik the priest of Tempus. On the other, a non-casting warrior of mixed class. Both have a STR of 18. Each are facing the finale in separate events, and want to make sure they’re at their best.
Scenario 1 (stacking)
Bob really only has one option. Use a Bull’s (2-5) and a Greater Bull’s (3-9) to maximize his outcome. He’ll get an average of 5-14 (Max 12) added to his STR score.
Erik has three options
- Use a Bull’s Strength and Greater Bull’s Strength potion just like Bob. This saves a 2nd level spell
- Cast Bull’s Strength and use a Greater Bull’s Strength potion. Same result as Bob
- Cast Empowered Bull’s Strength and use a Greater Bull’s Strength potion. This isn’t an option Bob has and gives Erik 1-2 more points to STR (still max 12) than Bob could generate
Scenario 2 (non-stacking)
If Bob really wants the maximum benefit, again, no choice here. Bob drinks the Great Bull’s Strength potion and adds 3-9 to his STR.
Erik has some interesting choices for maximum benefit
- Cast Empowered Bull’s Strength for 3-7
- Use the Greater Bull’s Strength potion for 3-9 and save the 4th level spell. Same bonus to his STR as Bob.
I would argue that in Scenario 2, that the caster has lost an advantage over the non-caster. Casters will always have a cost advantage. Potions aren’t cheap, particularly the good ones. But nothing changed in that regard. Narfell allows melee classes the use of potions to help by giving them access to spells and effects they otherwise wouldn’t have. But there’s nothing saying that casters won’t have access to the same potions, and with stacking to even greater effect.
Plus, I saw first hand how insane it was when Anna buffed Meadow. Anna’s spells, coupled with Greater potions maxed out three stats. It seemed incredibly unbalancing to me.
So fire away in response. I’m curious what people’s thoughts are.
This thread is being locked temporarily. Please direct concerns to me over direct message.
Now, whether we want to push to make them unstackable, is another matter, that I'm not discussing atm
No, you turned this thread into a very public value judgment against several veteran players. Its very clear you made very selective judgments about us, to use in THIS thread, which you absolutely did do.
Kronan last edited by
If you are going to have that tone, let me educate you a little. There was a MASSIVE amount of healing resources used. Obviously you didnt look so hard. Amanda was down 13 crit heal potions and 20 cure serious wounds potions ONTOP of that Raryldor healed. I know this cause that what I had quickslotted and I used it all. They are empty now.
If you are going to, with all due respect, sprout that, please get the facts straigt.
So lets continue, we made 6k each that trip, let me, right now, got to the temple in norwick so see what it costs to replenish Amandas normal healing resources. Hold on, I'll post shortly
When it comes to your longer post, i am inclined to just agree on disagree. There is SO much to unpack there but I dont know if it is really necessary unless this actually goes through, if not, its a moot point and we can all have an beverage of our choosing ^_^
Darkspyr last edited by
Okay, I think we have lost site of the entire discussion. This is a new system Dora put in place to enhance the game and rewards for players. Does it need to be tweaked? I do not know. Are the rewards too good? I do not know.
I do know this thread was started as a request for discussion on the subject and we did get some good opinions and feedback. There was way to much personal snipping going on, but people get passionate, or maybe their sense of humor gets lost in the text.
We have beat the proverbial horse to death and some good suggestions have been made. If at this point all we are going to do is stab each other, I think it should be locked as the original poster suggested.
@DarkHorseman I was there since you arrived to the previous map with the Tomb Riders. I didn't see anyone go down. Nor did I see 4 Heal potions being drunk. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I certainly didn't see it and there was no mention of it at all during the trip. I don't expect people to RP during fights, I understand it can be dangerous and not really worth it. But there was many other moments that could've used it, like the pause to get wood or the trip back, or the inbetween fights moments. I'm not going to derail the topic into an RP discussion, though.
The whole point I'm trying to make is that I think potions shouldn't stack, or should be more rare to get by. It doesn't feel like it takes that much effort, or that it's justified for them to stack, or that it's needed for them to do so.
Now, whether we want to push to make them unstackable, is another matter, that I'm not discussing atm.
DarkHorseman last edited by
@gonnar recount the heals uses to start, I used 4 if im not mistaken. 1 player went down during the trip as well. RP during combat, sorry no, im a slow typist and have never talked much during times im in dangerous areas, most of the server can attest to this. Did you catch RP as we traveled? As to your previous post, I agree with a little of what you said, much of it I dont. But as you point out, were all allowed to have opinions
but then the main thing the server is suposed to be made for, RP, is not what seems to worry people the most.
@gonnar you absolutely did, rp "nil". that is a value judgment.
No, it's not early in the morning here.
And also I followed you to make a point of how easy it was to get the potions that you (plural) claimed were so huge effort. I didn't judge your RP, never said if it was good or bad or whatever. I just mentioned the amount of RP involved in said trip. I never mentioned any names, either.
I do find it amusing though, that we're all talking about how the system of the server works in favour of this or that, and that the server is designed towards this or that, but then the main thing the server is suposed to be made for, RP, is not what seems to worry people the most.
Mind you, I'm also guilty of this in ocassions, it happens. Sometimes you don't feel like it, sometimes you're tight on time, etc. Shrugs
@adamic I do agree with that, mate. But then there's the question where's the bar limit? Why not allow just stacking stat items up to the max cap? etc... regardless of the fact we should just let people play and enjoy the server, there's also the balance that keeps things alright to be playing here. I'm not saying I'll fight for potions to not stack, I'm saying they shouldn't, or they should be way more rare. And I've given many points for that.
If it doesn't happen is not a big deal, but that doesn't mean it should be like that.
@gonnar so you literally followed us early in the morning, said nothing, judged our rp to be lacking to nil, to make a point in this thread?
I just saw 3 people do a Fire Giant Trip.
Healing potions used: One HEAL (and the cleric was going to heal the guy anyway), 5-10 serious wounds.
Time: 24 min
GBS Potions adquired: One of them was able to claim 7
Amount of RP during the trip: Very low. It fits all in a screenshot and a half.
Money made: Around 6k each more than enough to replenish what was used.
I'd say it was very few effort and high profit. But... what do I know.
Adamic last edited by
The simplest solution here is to play how you want. If you don’t like stacking, don’t do it.
If you have a problem with others “because it breaks the server”. What does that really mean? You’re basically saying it’s unfair that other PCs are more powerful.
What is that about? Why does it matter to you where other players are in comparison? It should stop you playing the way you want to play. It doesn’t and should stop your enjoyment. Must you keep others down to enjoy your game? I don’t get it.
We have almost no players. Stamping on others enjoyment or options is only going to drive players away.
If you want to be hard core like the “old Narfell” nothing is stopping you unless you can only enjoy it if you need everyone to be forced into your way of thinking.
I love and appreciate Wyvs characters that have self imposed restrictions without making a fuss and being a fun-martyr. Why can’t we all play and enjoy our own version of Narfell without forcing it on others?
If we are not careful we will be the last player playing on a server designed for 1.
@hekatoncheires Based on the opinion of someone that literally knows everything of the server to the detail, including spawning rates, drops, and can see what goes on behind the scenes. Also, if you're gonna make a post answering someone's post, it'd be nice that you actually bring something into the discussiong, rather than this last post that contributes nothing.
Now, before I go into detail with my post, let me remind you all that everyone can give their own opinion and that's fine. And that you should not take a suggestion or a discussion for useless just because there's other priorizing matters either. If you don't want to partake in the discussion because you want to talk about other things. Then make a thread about that other thing.
@Kronan "I would have to say that odds are already skewed aginst the melee/dex based fighter, due to the limitations of the enchanting system that heavily favors casting characters"
How? Both can enchant up to the same amount of Point items. The only difference is the gold they have to pay for it. For a 9p item it's a bit less than 2k gold difference. Which in the current Narfell, if you can already enchant a 9p, is nothing.
@Kronan "All in all, melee/dex based characters need to get theese potions to do the stacking by either buying them, with gold received from hunting or events, or get the mastery. Casters get that for free."
No, casters don't get it for free. Casters can't cast greater versions of spells like the ones in the potions.
@Kronan "makes the melee warrior already loose, cause the rogue/bard/wizard/sorc that are in the back lines and can either heal themselves/not using healing resources, comes out ALOT better than the fighter that uses 4-5 heal potions, at 1500 a pop,"
Change the people you party with, honestly. If the casters in your group are not buffing the fighter at the front and keeping them healed, that's poor tactics and that's hardly the server's fault. A buffed fighter will always fight better than a buffed mage/rogue/cleric. Cause fighters do that, fight. If you want an IC excuse tell them IC that " you ain't gonna risk your skin and money for them if they don't give ya your spells".
@Kronan "There are less than a handfull characters that are non-dm that actually have characters that could take the role as front line"
Anyone with melee combat class HP and IMP Expt can be a frontline. And if they get buffed by the people they party with, even more. I don't see how that argument has any validity. And to make a case with actual numbers. A full plate fighter at level 12 (to say something) has, without spells and with +1 gear only (Tho they'd have some +2 by now for sure) 10+1+10+4+1+1+1 = 28AC + 10 from IMP EXPT 38 AC, when most spawn that are not crazily outside that level range have between 16-20 AB. If you add a couple +2 items at level 12, or a better build, you get enough AB that you get only hit by 20's.
@Kronan "And by the way, casters can stack also. It works on my caster to first take the greater potions and then cast the spell.
With that, Casters are still comming out stronger so I do not see why we should limit melee characters even further."
True, but her point is that it hurts both, casters and fighters. And that in doing so, it hurts casters a bit more since they have a better stacking chances.
@Hekatoncheires "Do you know what it takes to get to a point where you can create greater bull's strength potions? If this is easy, I encourage you to do this. If I give you a week's time, which seems adequate for an easy task, would you be able to do it? A month maybe?"
Yes, I know what it takes. Once you get there, a single trip to Fire Giants nets you 5-6 GBS potions. That's for most characters that actually do the place, 30 min.
Now, if you're talking about achieving the mastery perse. I have a level 12 (now 13) bard that has been killing Hill Giants for 3 days, and after hitting level 13 tried with Fire Giants for another 3 days, except he can only kill the first 4-5 giants and then has to leave cause he can't take more.
In 6 days of that I've done a third of what's needed to hit the cap. But not only that, I've also made like 1 level and a half of XP and a bit over 20k gold. Poor me. (I know not everyone can do that, but it still makes a point)
@DarkHorseman "15-30? Wow, before I spent the time grinding to be able to make my own, and grinding more to have the exp to burn into them I bet I only saw 1 greater bulls strength over three years playing Reemul. Im jealous."
You've been clearly adventuring in the wrong places if you were looking for these type of potions. There's actually a map (That you can find about IG pretty easily) in which you can as a norm get 2-3 of these Greater Bulls potions per trip. If you're lucky you can make up to 7-8. And it's a normal map, not a death trap or anything.
Again, they said that it hurts both, melee and casters, and that in a way it hurts more casters. (The non-stacking issue itself).
@Kronan "R enchant a weapon with no +to AB but only damage and then GMW to a +5! Something with a melee can never get without said caster casting that spell on them."
True. So go with people that cast the spells on the fighter. That's like me arguing María will never have 200 hp cause she has wizard HPs and I really need those greater endurance potions to reach those HP. Or attacks per round, why do I have to have only two? I'm forced to use haste everytime I want to get more than 2! - And that's why casters buff (or should) buff melees for more efficiency in combat. If they don't, that's people's fault, not the systems. - Also, yeah about 3 people in the whole server's history can make weapons +5, so let's not go to the extremes so easily.
@Kronan "You know that, I can wreck the server with Linah"
No, you can't. There's several areas/maps you can't survive in without either using a huge amount of consumables or having a party with you. So I wouldn't count that as wrecking anything. So the rest of that argument makes no sense to me.
@Kronan "I havent even started with who are most likely to die, wich you also know by playing many barbarian characters, Te additional xp cost, and risk, there is substantial."
Is not that substantial. There's true rezz available. Also I'll point out the classes that I've seen died the most are hardly fighters but low HP people that can't position themselves and who were butchered by enemies with high damage per hit (most deaths go for i.e: Rogues and mages, the later not so much in high levels)
@Kronan "Deep down, this is a recipee on how the server is built and how it require frontliners to foot a steep healincost and gear cost, coupled with a limitation of gear with limit the ability of what frontliners can do, that are not divine and/or casters."
Not true. The server is not forcing your casters to not buff up your non casters. That's a personal choice people do when playing their characters because they get bored if they don't click the red thing or annoyed if they can't be the ones taking the kills or what not.
Also let me remind everyone about the absurd amount of dispelling creatures there's now in the server. Obviously if you're level 18-20 caster this doesn't really bother you that much, but well you're at the top of the ladder so... that's normal.
@DarkHorseman ""all it takes is farming" yes, that is all it takes, how much farming? Have you done these masteries? I know your characters are certainly capable. For me it took a considerable amount of time and effort, and constant time and effort to keep up with. I have had players tell me they wont put the effort into it because it takes so much time. Look forward to hearing your perspective."
As I said, in less than a week and very limited cause my PC can't go past the first 4-5 fire giants. I'm already a third into the max reward for giants hunting. And in the process I made a lot of XP and money. So.. barely feels like a chore or anything similar to that. But it does take time, of course, shouldn't be a free thing either. It just doesnt take "THAT MUCH OMG " time.
Why do you think there's a stat boosting item limitation? The point of it is that the Cleric that maxed wisdom to get all the nifty spells but in return has now 12 str can't just get all the items he wants to go around with 24 str permanently. If he wants to increase his STR he has to either use consumables or cast a spell and get a boost to it, but never reach the max.
Just tell me what sense do you think it makes for the server to have a limit to stat items when then everyone goes around stacking potions and virtually breaking this rule to have the max STR/DEX/whatever possible. And that, imho, is the reason why the potions shouldn't stack, or they should be made rare.
To weigh in myself, as Varya Tiller's player myself. I think stacking potions is fine, but I think those who put the time into mastery once they finally get the potions, the potions of greater bulls are easy to come by. There's people on this server that can clear all the giants in half an hour and make 5-6 Greater bulls strength after achieving the mastery (myself included) and I feel like thats way too much. Also, the fact that they can be sold I feel isn't ok. Mastery should by something for yourself, so making the potions that cannot be sold or traded I think would help balance things out.
Secondly, I was planning and hope to, when retiring Anna at some point, I wanted her (along with other NPCS eventually) to sell animal-focused greater potions at 1000 gold each as an NPC. Different characters/clerics can sell different things, like cleric of Mystra selling greater int, cleric of Torm selling greater charisma, Anna I'd like to have her sell wisdom, ETC.
now the actual stacking issue
These are my proposed solutions to removing stacking if this option is taken
- Allow purchasable 'consumable' Ioun Stones in the form of potions
- Allow drinking multiple potions to stack up to their max limit (for example if regular bulls, you drink the potion once and you roll a 2, you can drink it again and roll a 4 to have it add up to 5 max. Greater Animal Potions (2d4+1), you drink one potion that gives you a 6, you can drink it again to put you up all the way to 9. This way, people can STILL get the max +12 benefit BUT they need +3 items in that stat to make it so
Lastly, with access to full strength, Barbarian Rage should change from STR bonus to BAB bonus, 2 AB for rage 3 AB for greater rage whether things are changed or not
Eh, most of the things I've read in the last 10 posts are totally not a true representation of reality.
based on whose metrics? Your personal metrics?
DarkHorseman last edited by
@gonnar "all it takes is farming" yes, that is all it takes, how much farming? Have you done these masteries? I know your characters are certainly capable. For me it took a considerable amount of time and effort, and constant time and effort to keep up with. I have had players tell me they wont put the effort into it because it takes so much time. Look forward to hearing your perspective.
Adamic last edited by
The biggest issue facing the server right now is lack of players - not stacking potions.
Eh, most of the things I've read in the last 10 posts are totally not a true representation of reality. But I'm sleepy and I'll wait until tomorrow to make a long boring post.
But please, don't label as "hard" or say " how much effort is put into getting those GBS" when in reality all it takes is farming Giants, which also give great loot and XP. As if you had to sacrifice anything for it when it's in fact a blessing from the Gods that on top of great XP and loot they also give you the ability to craft GBS potions.