Magic Tokens DISCUSSION



  • Interesting idea. Overall pretty interesting, here's some additional thoughts.

    I'd be curious if with the RLG changes an item could be "sacrificed" - (To "mystra" - etc - to an appropriate "church" or some "magical forge" in "Spellhold", (clearly not available to the magically deviant) 😉
    It should be in one place, not guild related, probably not faith related and probably just in Peltarch which is very unlikely to be out of bounds to anyone on RP grounds. Perhaps make it related to "Mad Mage" or another NPC which has been around before?

    The forge would create an "Augment crystal" of ALL "abilities present on the item", while simultaneously destroying the item.

    This crystal could then be used in the manner described in the post.
    i.e. makes the "randomness" tied to the items actually found.
    Allows lets say a "really nice RLG longbow you have" properties taken from that, and put on a "mundane" shortbow etc, because your character is a hin and just can't use it.

    • Prevents selling of junk items more so than currently. - People are still not retaining interesting equipment for characters that could really use it (new ones etc), they may retain crystals however?
    • Makes "nearly perfect items for me" absolutely perfect if on the right piece of equipment, i.e. a proficient weapon.
    • Will be far more fun when everyone has a shop, as trading crystals will be very good for shop keepers.
    • Also suggest it being linked to the "run-down" of existing shops and giving those players "market stalls in peltarch"

    Menu IDEAS? Options? on the "recombinator magic forge" - subject to the maximum of the "token" from the level of the magic item found.

    1. Sacrifice item in the forge for gold. (as suggested)
    2. Sacrifice item for magical augment crystal matching current properties
    3. Enchant an item in the forge with the augment crystal in the forge
    4. Get another random magic item
    5. Sacrifice for "another" sort of reward - some sort of XP reward, perhaps related to their "faith" sacrifice? - Maybe RP issues of course in terms of incompatible faiths, but perhaps less so if the "recombinator forge" or whatever is not faith linked?


  • @hekatoncheires I agree with this frankly. I like the idea of the dice roll creating something I could use and am fine even amused by the 90% of stuff I can’t or even doesn’t make sense... I love the longsword I have with the mounted archery feat... I imagine the enchanted who decided to do it..: was it an experiment that went wrong?? A joke for his mate?? A six armed horsewarrior??



  • @darkhorseman said in Magic Tokens DISCUSSION:

    The ATS crafting is broken, everyone knows it

    I can't speak for the team, just myself. I've, for a long time, been plotting ways to improve upon the crafting system. If anyone has thoughts, let's chat. I want to hear your thoughts.

    @hekatoncheires said in Magic Tokens DISCUSSION:

    Some of the items are strange; thats cause its a new system and its getting the kinks ironed out of it

    ^ 100% this.

    The loot generator is new, it is evolving and will continue to evolve with your help. I rely on your input and creative ideas like @Flom 's to solve for its shortcomings.

    If you have feedback for it that extends outside the purpose of this thread (magic tokens), please let us know here.



  • the general attraction of a random item generation system is that it can produce a mass of items easily without someone pouring oodles of time customizing a backstory and description and balanced item by hand. Even then, a lot of narfell's treasure is subpar and gets sold as gold fodder anyway. Its just....convenient. The alternative is carefully crafting hundreds of items and watching 100 unique "court swords of impiltur" flood the market just due to the sheer number of items being generated. It makes no more sense than some of the weird items the RLG system produces, and it simply far easier and satisfies a need on the server. Its also pretty delightful.

    It IS lovely to see a big hoard of beautifully individually crafted unique items. It is also super labor intensive to CREATE that hoard, a large % of which will end up in the market anyway and not used, which means WAY less hoards like that appearing.

    Some of the items are strange; thats cause its a new system and its getting the kinks ironed out of it. I know tpickles is aware of the clubs with point blank shot as a bonus feat: i told him about them. That kind stuff gets adjusted in time.

    And the system DOES produce cool and useful items. Go explore, they are there. Rary just sold a ring with +3 will and +2 concentration, which is FANTASTIC in the narfell system. They scale up as you fight tougher stuff.

    Honestly, im really pleased you're throwing new stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.



  • I would prefer to invest the dev time into fixing the the systems already in place. Some great ideas hasbeen posted here when it comes to spawns and areas.

    Automated enchanting. random spawns. looking over low level areas, all of that will increase the server quality.

    Oh, and halberds should be allowed when mounted! 😃



  • @darkhorseman

    Not all devs have abandoned the ATS system. It's still on the cards, though I cannot speak for the dev team.

    I will remark that one of the wealthiest characters on the server is wealthy because of Narfell's crafting system, in combination with the new player stalls, one of the latest additions to Narfell's PVE. So don't rule it out completely.

    Nor are these random tokens meant to replace classic crafting. You can get better results with classic crafting, far easier. They're simply meant to be a fun little roll of the dice, and maybe you get lucky during the leveling process.



  • Thread forked so people can actually see the poll.



  • @flom So I went over some thing in discord as to why I voted no. Much of what I said is most likely irrelevant, we the players don't know the code, or what possible combos can drop from the RLG system. I will say I think the RLG has been fantastic for the server and makes Narfell a richer place. After thinking more about the token system it made me think about other issues that all tie into the subject in some way I feel. The ATS crafting is broken, everyone knows it, its the elephant in the room. People put countless hours in to perusing crafting which early on they know will be largely useless, yet we do it anyway. I know that no one wants to tackle the old ATS code, and I can't blame them. In many ways I think RLG is a death blow to ATS crafting, sure it has its place but no one (or very few) will ever feel truly rewarded for their efforts. If tokens are a thing, why cant we have crafted items that can be exchanged for items that are useful in game? I would rather see something like that then RLG loot and RLG tokens to roll to make random loot more random.



  • @redmenace

    I understand this concern and it has been expressed by other DMs as well. In my eyes Narfell can have both interesting crafting options and thriving DM narratives. There is no dichotomy. I don't know if I can convince you of that, but I thank you for your reasons. I, and I am sure other DMs, will consider them carefully.

    As an aside, I can't speak for the dev team, though I can say that they have made life easier for DMs, though perhaps in ways that aren't easily visible to players. The tokens were re-arranged and are by now easier to use, and various new commands have been implemented to make DMing events easier. Other DM-specific requests have been made, which I can reveal here: I've asked for a clone rod that spawns 10 of the clone, rather than just 1, to help create customized enemy encounters.

    More generally, Narfell owes a lot of its success to its devs, who work hard and for free, on a volunteer basis.



  • @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    @redmenace

    In your original post, you mention that you voted against the proposal because you think the team would be better off devoting resources to other matters with more staying power overall and more useful to everyone. I asked you to identify them.

    If there is nothing that contradicts the proposal with these other matters, would you still oppose it?

    If the constraints of developer time and resources weren't a factor? Honestly, yes I probably still would.

    It's the kind of system you see in a game like Path of Exile or Black Desert Online, the kind of things that are intentionally monotonus and exhausting to make you cough up dosh to get it over and done with.

    On one hand I don't see the value or enjoyment of a system, simple as that. I, personally, have seen the RLG system spawn an item with actual practical use all of once and I don't expect rerolls or random upgrades to make those random items any better.

    And on the other hand, I don't like the trend that development like this signals. I don't like that the dev team is more focused on making Narfell more like an MMO than an enviroment ot RP in. I don't like that instead of creating new tools to make DMing easier and combatting DM Burnout the mantra of development has become "A server you don't need a DM for" and I don't like that you need me to tell you all of this when not even a month ago a DM quit the server for the same reasons.

    I don't play Narfell because I want to level up my character and get the best loot. I certainly don't play it for the thrilling experience of Neverwinter Nights combat. If I wanted that experience I'd just play a different, better game. The reason I'm playing Narfell, and have been playing Narfell for three years now, is because I want to roleplay as my character with other characters in this setting. And the continued emphasis on the "PvE experience" signals to me that the people dictating the server feels differently than me, which would mean my time would be better served somewhere else.



  • @redmenace

    In your original post, you mention that you voted against the proposal because you think the team would be better off devoting resources to other matters with more staying power overall and more useful to everyone. I asked you to identify them.

    If there is nothing that contradicts the proposal with these other matters, would you still oppose it?



  • @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    So then why bring up an unrelated complaint?

    @redmenace said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    I mean, they don't. But you asked me to suggest something else and so I did.



  • @redmenace

    I agree that customized DM items are superior. You can, if you ask around, find several fully-fledged books or plot items with a [DM Xanatos Gambit] tag detailing narrative or item backstory in the description, which I've given out at a plot's end. It's just that we play on different time-zones.

    Does a lack of item descriptions mean we shouldn't give players other craft options? I don't see how it does.

    And neither do you:

    Why do you suspect it is either/or between these proposals and the topic's token proposal?

    I mean, they don't.

    So then why bring up an unrelated complaint?



  • @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    What makes you think that the proposal means DMs will not customize items for plot or event rewards?

    I know it wasn't directed at me, but I can answer this one!

    Because they already stopped. I can't remember the last time I found loot that was intentionally placed at the end of an event. Instead it's just been a pile of randomly spawned gear. And to be blunt about it, it's as satisfying as a wet fart. It's like having a nice home cooked meal with your partner and then they tease "I made dessert" and they they pull out one of those crappy canned cheese cakes. It tastes bad and it kind of ruins the meal.
    I feel like these tokens would be more of the same, an extra thing a DM can toss into the loot pile and say "See, it's not all random loot." Like topping the canned cheese cake with a bit of whipped cream.

    @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    Or, on the other hand, what makes you think rejecting the proposal means DMs will hand out more customized items?

    Likely, it's less rejecting the proposal and more letting the DM team know their feelings on random loot as DM reward that they hope will lead to more customized items.

    @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    Why do you suspect it is either/or between these proposals and the topic's token proposal?

    I mean, they don't. But you asked me to suggest something else and so I did.

    And beside, the most common response to people asking about new features is being told that developer time is limited and things need to be prioritised. If a sense that it's either/or has come from anywhere it's from the other side of the discussion.



  • @marrow

    Please don't take these questions the wrong way. I merely want to understand:

    • What makes you think that the proposal means DMs will not customize items for plot or event rewards?

    • Or, on the other hand, what makes you think rejecting the proposal means DMs will hand out more customized items?

    • Finally, what makes you think that there is a dichotomy between improving PVE and DM narrative, or that improving PVE means DMs will no longer DM events?



  • @karnivor I agree that it'd be nice for players to have something to do but my most important issue is still that I feel the random loot and token idea hurts verisimilitude and makes the items you find less narratively engaging. I feel tempted to share anecdotes about my experience with loot in Narfell but I already wrote a novel in this thread so I will keep it simple for now lol



  • @redmenace said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    @flom said in Proposal: Magic tokens - new consumable drop, to modify/craft magic items:

    @redmenace

    The functional objective and difference is to provide an alternative way to craft items during the leveling process.

    I guess then my follow up question would be: Why?
    'The Leveling Process' isn't really a thing. You only need to reach level 9 to start enchanting 9 point gear and it's not a difficult level to reach. This would be an entire system, and dev time needed, for a system that would only benefit players at a very brief period of time and because of the inherent random nature of it all would likely not actually benefit them at all. By the time you actually manage to make a piece of gear worth a damn you'd have been able to enchant it yourself.
    I feel like the dev work for this idea would be better served elsewhere, on something with more staying power overall and more useful to everyone.

    The difference is that enchanting stuff costs you XP to get exactly what you want. This is a system that would allow players to find a nice set of armor, make it a little better for no XP cost, and say "Good enough".

    That said, I would love a menu driven enchantment system that wouldn't tie up a DMs time.



  • Marrow! I totally agree. Of ~course~ stories, both great and small, are Narfell's single most attractive feature and the reason why I'm sticking with an old game on an old server. I just don't think these two things are in any real opposition to one another. It's important for there to be things for players to do together when the DMs are absent and yes - I too love to spend that time in meaningful conversation about ongoing plots, whether my PCs are involved in them or not. However, those big and sweeping plots have had a tendency to burn great DMs out and without the DMs, it's all too easy to find the server completely empty. I kind of view these suggestions as something akin to the crafting system - a simple reason to do something, go somewhere and forge stories together as PCs. If we've currently got devs who can and want to work at something like this, why not?

    Big server-wide plots will come again, sooner or later. But when DMs are absent, busy, tired or downright uninspired, we players will need to make our own fun and this could be one of the possibilities.



  • @redmenace

    Monster CR and EXP is currently being addressed.

    Quests are in the works.

    I like the goodies in placeables idea, which has been discussed by the team in the past.

    Why do you suspect it is either/or between these proposals and the topic's token proposal?



  • Back in MY day (not that long ago) I used to lament being low level because whenever a big bad at the end of a plot was to be fought, the high level PCs wouldn't need me at all, if I ever went to those events I tended to be along for the ride. This at the time made me want to level up my characters and made me excited to gain levels and get gear because it made me closer to those big important PCs that where always at the forefront, shaping the world and advancing the plot. This mattered because despite almost never interacting with these big bad enemies myself, the ripples of what they did and how the players responded to them would reach out into every facet of the community over the course of months, years. When there was an actual plot going on I would have a reason to spend hours just sitting on the server just so I didn't miss people mentioning important details or telling stories about events they went on that might have something to do with it.

    Adding shiny leveling systems and random loot at the expense of verisimilitude does not solve the underlying problem that there's hardly any reason to be high level anymore. DMs have all gone to their own corners of the map to avoid eachother and run short to medium length plots with low impact that stop mattering often as soon as they end. It feels like the entire team have no interest in coming together and making the world feel alive. I don't go on the forums and read about the current developments because nobody is posting them, players aren't excited about being in plots because it tends to only ever matter to that small group who always go on said DMs events anyway. This matters because I have no reason to worry about missing details, as long as I'm on at the same time that DM is running their plots I am very unlikely to miss anything.

    The one saving grace up until recently was that even with all of these issues with the team not really wanting to/not being able to do that kind of thing anymore was that all those little stories I did go on mattered to me and as I leveled up, while maybe being more powerful didn't matter as much, the fact that those items I got had a little story attached and felt real in the sense that the DM often had a reason for the item to be there.

    Now DMs sprinkle in randomly generated loot that says right there on the tin that it was randomly generated, reducing it to trash loot I dismantle in Destiny 2 constantly as it clutters up my inventory. Narfell doesn't have good enough combat to get away with being a looter. On top of that, Destiny 2 also has big plots that every player in the game is involved with and experiences alongside each other - making it worth talking about and theorize about with other people who play.

    I know Narfell can have that too on a much deeper level because those discussions are happening in character and each player is seeing all different parts of this wider narrative that pushes the world onward and gives the players something to look foward to. I know it can because I've seen it and been involved with it in the past, even if I was just along for the ride.

    I don't hate this random loot idea at all, I just think that by focusing on this instead of on making Narfell be the evolving world it could be, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse.

    This might seem like an unfixable problem and that I'm just whining that the DMs aren't putting in enough work. I think they are working very hard, the devs, too, for sure. The issue is communication and desire to actually do these things. I can't know what is going on in the DMs chat or what plans they have cooking but I have a pretty strong feeling that they aren't all sharing ideas and formulating plotlines that they can all contribute to and post about on the forums so the whole community can be involved, and I don't think it's crazy to think that is what is missing.

    Even if I'm just being a total idiot and all this stuff is going on in other time zones and I'm just missing out - the problem remains that I have no reason to believe that. Where is the evidence? Why are all the maps exactly the same as how they were months ago? Why is nobody talking about what's going on? All I see is small talk and people arguing about semantics. I don't think it can be overstated how important it is to find ways to show a tangible effect on the world both in game and on the forums for these kinds of things. When people say they want the DMs to do more stuff I don't think they mean they want more events specifically, I think they want that feeling of the server going somewhere and having a chance to somehow impact it when those events do happen.

    Either way I can only speak for myself and I have no interest in engaging with this random loot system until such a time as I feel like I'm not leveling up for leveling up's sake - maybe that sounds stupid to some of you but I didn't get into Narfell because I liked RNG loot, I got into it specifically because I didn't.

    I hope this rambling overlong post helped illustrate a different viewpoint on the subject and hopefully I'm not the only one who feels this way otherwise this post sure would have been a waste of everyone's time! Thankyou for reading.