Truesight/Blindsight


  • Narfell DM

    For purposes of an upcoming rogue overhaul, I'm trying to gather a list of spawns that have either truesight or blindsight feats (basically they can spot invisible/stealth characters). Please post specific spawn names below.


  • Narfell PL

    ^ This

    As a player guide, I recommend that if the discussion needs to continue between folks on that subject further, make a suggestion or similar thread. 🙂



  • Alright, things went a little out of context here.

    Firstly, this goes for everyone because I keep seeing it now and then. The fact that anyone plays a weaker combat character/class doesn't give them any leverage over others to belittle their choices and proclaim themselves the true or superior Roleplayers. Cut it out immediately please. Nobody is forced into making any choices so when they make them they should do it because they enjoy it, and never to think themselves the superior player. There is no holy high ground for anyone to stand on. The day the DM team considers a kind of build is too powerful or powergamey, it'll be ruled or limited, as it has happened repeatedly in the past.

    Meanwhile, all characters are equally RP worthy, regardless if they pick Expertise, Point Blank Shot or Extra Turning, or if they use their gear slots to max combat efficiency, or to max their Hide/MS, Lore, Perform, or whatever. I dare say every single Narfell character build intends to max one or several aspects of that character in an attempt to define the character and "be the special snowflake" in one or another way. And unless the DM team says otherwise, they all are perfectly legit choices. There are several things that define a good role-player, and none have to do with whether their character is strong or not in combat.

    Finally, this is a thread meant to report creatures that have True Seeing so, at DM discretion, they can be changed to Blindsight. So let's employ this thread exactly for that - to submit possible candidates to the change, and let the DM team act on them (or not). For discussions or debates, feel free to open a new post in the Community Suggestions area.



  • @59186623e1=Gonnar:

    Hen, how many spawns are there remaining that have True Seeing? That are not DM spawned (so scratch demonds from the list).

    Beholders
    Hulks…
    Polar bears and..?

    I don't think there's that many, rogues can already as it is sneak past many many spawns, around 90% of the spawns in the game.

    And I found one that was a bug, and it devolved into all this.



  • Hen, how many spawns are there remaining that have True Seeing? That are not DM spawned (so scratch demonds from the list).

    Beholders
    Hulks…
    Polar bears and..?

    I don't think there's that many, rogues can already as it is sneak past many many spawns, around 90% of the spawns in the game.



  • @5f52a7cbf6=Gonnar:

    @5f52a7cbf6=Scout-Hen:

    @5f52a7cbf6=Crimsonchampion:

    Its kind of funny if you think about it, the rogue is the kind of character that you -would- think to bypass all obstacles in favor of treasure, because they're so weak.

    And before anyone says there has been strong rogues. Yes, there have been many fighter multiclass improved expertise knockdown Ranger two weapon fighting rogues. Those arn't rogue. Those are just mindless powerbuilds like the other 'good powerful' builds on narfell with improved expertise, IKD, etc people who very specifically planned for power over RP and then found ways to just make it work.

    I disagree. I could play a rogue of your rogue's level, pure rogue, and be sick powerful still. The thing with rogues, pure ones anyways, is they require a lot more of skill to be played than other classes, because they have strong weaknesses. But that doesn't make the classs shitty.

    In any case, back on topic. I think some spawns need TS. I don't know about polar bears in particular, is not like there's many of those anyway.

    Yes some spawns to, specifically the ones Dora listed before for example.

    As for rogue, yes most people could make a lvl 13 rogue quite powerful with the proper selection of feats and gear. Sickly powerful maybe not, powerful none the less. However that wasnt the point I was driving home. Dedication to skills over trying to be sickly powerful. I'm well aware how to acheive 36 standing AC on hen without improved expertise, a choice i dont make in favour of skill gear, that I dont need to swap to be effective around the table with.



  • @e8d7010336=Scout-Hen:

    @e8d7010336=Crimsonchampion:

    Its kind of funny if you think about it, the rogue is the kind of character that you -would- think to bypass all obstacles in favor of treasure, because they're so weak.

    And before anyone says there has been strong rogues. Yes, there have been many fighter multiclass improved expertise knockdown Ranger two weapon fighting rogues. Those arn't rogue. Those are just mindless powerbuilds like the other 'good powerful' builds on narfell with improved expertise, IKD, etc people who very specifically planned for power over RP and then found ways to just make it work.

    I disagree. I could play a rogue of your rogue's level, pure rogue, and be sick powerful still. The thing with rogues, pure ones anyways, is they require a lot more of skill to be played than other classes, because they have strong weaknesses. But that doesn't make the classs shitty.

    In any case, back on topic. I think some spawns need TS. I don't know about polar bears in particular, is not like there's many of those anyway.



  • Im not trying to be toxic, im being realistic. As is stands there is one peristant chest rogues cant get to free, and it's by no means riskless, oh and did I mention fighters can solo to it anyways? Its disheartening to see this argument pop up all the time abut how rogues will seak past the odds swipe the loot and fade into the night. Because they are supposed to do that, however just like all things people need to be held accountable for their actions. No diffrent than people having their tokens stripped in the passed, or banned for exploiting or cheating. As players of classes you need to have some kind of Moral compass that stops you from taking such actions as el og el sneaking into CR 32456 monsters for loot 1-29 and getting it scott free even if you can only do it thanks to a huge commitment of skillpoints.

    To be honest talking in party chat while invis should break you out, as it gives away your location and blurr. No different than when hen stands 3 feet from an orc dancing infront of it as my party comes and I sit with a silence aura around me. NEverwinter nights has these mechanics built in for the classes. Slapping blindsight on something for the sake of saying fuck you instead of perhaps giving a boss spawn guarding said chest that needs a team. You don't understand how sad it is to be a scout, get shit talked for having 'low skills' then made fun of ICly because said scout cant sneak past this being even though they dedicate all their time effectivly wasted for nothing. Might as well rebuild for all the cool combat feats, but we cant…. we didn't chose to powerbuild from level one and not need a rebuild. And we're looked down upon when trying to get to the same power as others with rebuilds.



  • Hen, you are still not getting what I'm saying. Although in fairness I should have made it more clear.

    Blindsight - 60ft radius
    Type of feat: monster
    Prerequisite: none

    Specifics: Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, scent, acute hearing, or echolocation, the creature maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant. The creature usually does not need to make spot or listen checks to notice creatures within the range of its blindsight ability (60 feet).

    There is no reason to be toxic Hen, though I suppose I could see my post putting someone on the defensive. I don't know why you keep repeating this caster/rogue thing when I'm specifically pushing for invisibility to be LESS useful. As far as countering stealth, read the above feat. It basically says, "don't try to sneak up right next to me". It serves as a counter to someone sneaking all the way up to a persistent treasure chest, taking it, and walking home.



  • @b9442c8af0=Crimsonchampion:

    Its kind of funny if you think about it, the rogue is the kind of character that you -would- think to bypass all obstacles in favor of treasure, because they're so weak.

    And before anyone says there has been strong rogues. Yes, there have been many fighter multiclass improved expertise knockdown Ranger two weapon fighting rogues. Those arn't rogue. Those are just mindless powerbuilds like the other 'good powerful' builds on narfell with improved expertise, IKD, etc people who very specifically planned for power over RP and then found ways to just make it work.



  • Only point I would like to bring up is that people sneak on various characters all the time using the stealth mechanic. The idea is to keep a low presence, low sight and low sound of yourself.

    How is walking around a bear any different then walking around a kobold or orc at point blank range in bright pink any different? Its a game mechanic, and because its a game mechanic, maybe it should be fair to rogues who already kind of get the shaft? Rogues don't work the way they should and its kind of sad =\

    Its kind of funny if you think about it, the rogue is the kind of character that you -would- think to bypass all obstacles in favor of treasure, because they're so weak.



  • @52c97525a4=Voight:

    I'm not sure how to respond to that, did you read my post Hen? It doesn't seem like you did… but anyway all I'm saying are that there needs to be spawns in high challenge areas that counteract all forms of hiding aside from something like greater sanctuary, which has had it's duration nerfed and is useful only for emergency escapes. This goes for invisibility, stealth, anything.

    I read it, and fundemantaliy disagree if it is on monsters that should not have it. Clearly a beholder needs TS, a demon sure, a hulk yes. Animals? No. Dire or not. Plus for such a high level area there is no randomized loot other than tree's from a lost profession no one uses anymore. Let alone exp, Frot giants dont give a lvl 14 exp unless its a elite guard or Jarl, JArls giving sizable exp to even level 18's.

    Im all for magical things to have magical sight. I am not or replacing an entire class with a wizard and 2 spells, I'm sorry its just a spit in the face.



  • I'm not sure how to respond to that, did you read my post Hen? It doesn't seem like you did… but anyway all I'm saying are that there needs to be spawns in high challenge areas that counteract all forms of hiding aside from something like greater sanctuary, which has had it's duration nerfed and is useful only for emergency escapes. This goes for invisibility, stealth, anything.



  • Damn its a good thing NWN isnt real life. Invis should not take the place of a 1/2 (some) rogues who like to be scouts job. Animals should have see invis, higher spot and listen, and those who commit the skillpoints, and points on enchanted items forsaking other abilities to gain such advantages.

    At some point this needs to be a fantasy game.



  • A Polar Bear or whatever animal you want to use as an example would not detect you on the ethereal plane. Would the AI "see" you, yes, but being unable to target you it's safe to say they don't see you. I am not suggesting polar bears should in an in-character sense have the magical ability of True Seeing. Unfortunately in a game like NWN the engine is limited. I'm not sure how true seeing compares to blindsight in NWN, but one of the two would represent a wide range of behaviors and abilities. In this particular case I think blindsight would suffice. Also, blindsight is not a magical ability.

    As far as a level 8 rogue spending a lot of time learning how to walk quietly, sure I get that. So why not apply the same logic to a carnivorous animal that has spent every waking moment of it's life learning how to find and eat the things that spend their entire life learning how to walk quietly?

    As far as sneaking up to a polar bear on a snowy mountain with no vegetation.. I just don't see it. If we are going to get deeply into the plausibility as compared to reality these animals literally smell prey miles away. Miles away. We can go deeper into the effectiveness of magic versus a polar bear, but it's just as easy to turn around and say these polar bears live in a world full of magic and have likely dealt with invisibility in the past. Unless that high hide/move silently allows you to burrow beneath the snow at 100% movement rate I just don't see it. I don't know. If you want to RP building a realistic snowman suit and covering yourself in polar bear piss that's one thing, but to be able to consistently and without failure stand right beside a feral animal just does not seem realistic to me in any way, no matter how hard you've trained to walk quietly.

    I don't mean to come off the wrong way here, and I can't believe I'm arguing over how feasible it is to sneak up on a polar bear, or whether or not an animal's senses can overcome magic, but there is a reason I am all over this. I realize I'm pulling teeth on this one but I don't want to be able to cast a level 2 invisibility and suddenly become invincible. I don't want any single PC to be able to raid every persistent treasure chest on a regular basis with absolutely no risk. It's just as much an OOC matter of keeping things challenging and balanced as it is a matter of plausibility. Of course this is only my personal opinion!



  • Invisibility does not make one quiet (sneaky), so higher listening skill makes a lot of sense for animals. If a good sneak was invisible, they would be hard to hear.



  • I agree with Inkish.

    It's true that certain animals do have greatly enhanced senses. There's a way to reflect this… give them very high spot/listen skills. I don't care how keen a wolf's sense of smell is, they're not going to be able to smell someone approaching in the Etherial Plane.

    In real life it is possible, under the right conditions, to get very close to many of these animals without being noticed. I would imagine this would only be more true in the Forgotten Realms, where elves are born to slip through the forest, gear can be enchanted to supernaturally boost your stealth, and rangers are blessed by their god to the point where they can actually cast spells.



  • @62120713c9=Voight:

    Before I comment, let me say that I came pretty close to death by polar bear myself. I think creatures like this need to keep their TS/BS. I mean, realistically, I just don't see how it would be possible to sneak up on a polar bear. Same with wolves, or any "dire" animal really that would have super enhanced hearing, a scent ability, etc.

    Enhanced hearing/scent =/= ability to beat high level magic when you yourself are not even magical.

    Realistically, a commoner, which pretty much most of our IRL and fantasy world is, would have difficulty doing so, nearly impossible; partly because animals generally have higher sensory skills. But those who actually spend time practicing the arts of stealth, camouflage, and the like would have a fair chance. Remember, that level 8 rogue has a lot of time and effort being put into being sneaky and given enough training (8 levels for this sake of argument) would be more than enough to sneak up on almost any animal, dire or not.

    TS and BS are magical abilities, they should in all fairness, be reserved for creatures with magical senses. Most animals should just have improved listen/spot. I really think scent doesn't equate to being allowed TS or BS, since scent doesn't mean they can automatically see someone through Greater Sanctuary or Invisibility (which in all reality, would confuse the hell out of a dumb animal, if they could smell something but not see it at all)


  • Narfell DM

    @fea81ff886=Scout-Hen:

    Dire Polar Bears - Coldstone Mountains they still have blindsight and my lord does it hurt.

    Apparently they had a true seeing token on TOP of the feat. Please post a bug.



  • Before I comment, let me say that I came pretty close to death by polar bear myself. I think creatures like this need to keep their TS/BS. I mean, realistically, I just don't see how it would be possible to sneak up on a polar bear. Same with wolves, or any "dire" animal really that would have super enhanced hearing, a scent ability, etc.